For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

So lets look at it another way.

After getting attacked in the street by one man within in 10-15 minutes shes with another man, peacefully with cashoo in hand in the yard, presumably for a sex act, evethiugh she spent considerable amount of time with the man who just attacked her not going in a secluded place for a sex act, where she is then attacked by the new guy and murdered?

Yeah right.

[c.d.]

So lets look at it another way.

After getting attacked in the street by one man within in 10-15 minutes shes with another man, peacefully with cashoo in hand in the yard, where she is then attacked and murdered?

Yeah right.

How do you know she was attacked? That is not a word Schwartz used. Neither did he use the word assault or vicious. He only saw a woman being pushed.

I think using the word attacked is influencing your thinking.

c.d.

[Observer]

How do you know she was attacked? That is not a word Schwartz used. Neither did he use the word assault or vicious. He only saw a woman being pushed.

No he did not. It's possible that the assault as witnessed by Schwartz, was no more than a tanked up local taking exception to Liz Stride propositioning him. Lets not forget he initially pulled her into the street. Was this an attempt to eject her up the road, and out of the street? Stride resisted so he threw her down onto the ground. This would also explain why Stride didn't cry out loudly, she realised she was in the wrong, and didn't want to draw attention to the incident. Just a thought of course.

[c.d.]

Agreed, Observer. If you change attacked to pushed the incident can be seen in a whole different light. Whitechapel was a rough place filled with drunk workingmen. Is it really so far fetched that a woman out by herself late at night right after the pubs closed got hassled a bit by some drunk?

c.d.

[Observer]

Agreed, Observer. If you change attacked to pushed the incident can be seen in a whole different light. Whitechapel was a rough place filled with drunk workingmen. Is it really so far fetched that a woman out by herself late at night right after the pubs closed got hassled a bit by some drunk?

c.d.

Par for the course I'd say.

[Abby Normal]

Par for the course I'd say.

Hi observer and cd
Absolutely. On its own. I totally agree.
But shes found with a slit throat minutes later a few feet away in the yard.

So i would ask you both:
What was she doing that night?
Was she actively solicitating?
Who was the man marshall saw?
Who was the man diemshitz saw?
Were they the same man?
Was she attacked by another man and killed after BS man?
Was this man a new client she just solicitataed?
Was this new man the ripper?

[c.d.]

I think the question of whether or not she was actively soliciting (solicitating is not a word) is somewhat moot. Even if she was not actively soliciting we have no way of knowing her reaction if approached by a customer. I think she was alone at some point late in the evening so whether she had been with a man or men in a date like setting earlier is also somewhat moot.

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.

The timing for another killer other than the BS man is cutting it close (no pun intended). But a second killer eliminates all the red flags associated with the BS man. Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second killer in his report. I think that is what happened.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

I think the question of whether or not she was actively soliciting (solicitating is not a word) is somewhat moot. Even if she was not actively soliciting we have no way of knowing her reaction if approached by a customer. I think she was alone at some point late in the evening so whether she had been with a man or men in a date like setting earlier is also somewhat moot.

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.

The timing for another killer other than the BS man is cutting it close (no pun intended). But a second killer eliminates all the red flags associated with the BS man. Swanson allowed for the possibility of a second killer in his report. I think that is what happened.

c.d.

Fair enough cd. You could be right. It would explain it all quite simply.

I just see too much a coincidence that the all the men seen with her that night were wearing a peaked cap, that marshalls man and diemshitz man were also described so similarily, besides the peaked cap, that lawende and company also describe a similar man. And the anon sighting in church street also. It seems the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night to me.

Plus, as you say, the timing so tight for another man to come along and also that shes assaulted twice. And that one has to come up with a totally new man, one apparently never seen, to be her killer. Especially when we have bs man, who not only matches descriptions of the witnesses that night, but also generally of the ripper, whos seen assualting the victim shortly before shes found dead.

But again, to be totally honest, if it wasnt for peaked cap man matching pretty mutch all the descriptions, i would probably agree with your idea as most probable.
And of course, i also agree with you that strides killer was the ripper.

Amd thanks for the correction on the word soliciting. : )

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

You are still using the term "assaulting." Are you sure that is correct?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I think her encounter with the BS man was just a little street scuffle. I think her killer came along a few minutes later. I think he was a client and I think he was Jack.

Possibly Stride was not alone in the gateway, she was with Parcel-man. She was with him just minutes before, but on the other side of the street.

BS-man passed bye and suspected what they were up to, so he grabbed her pulling/pushing her down, as if to say 'we don't want your sort around here'.

This was the altercation witnessed by Schwartz, while Parcel-man was standing back out of sight in the shadows. Schwartz walked away diagonally across the road, his attention was on the scuffle unfolding in the gateway, not on anyone standing in the shadows.

If this is how events unfolded, Parcel-man may have been Stride's killer.

If BS-man was not her killer, then we have to believe a second man came on the scene unknown to everyone. Or, one of the men already present was the killer.
For me the choices are between Pipeman or Parcel-man. Yet we are told Pipeman followed Schwartz away from the scene, which leaves the question, what happened to Parcel-man, and was he the only man left with Stride?

[Robert St Devil]

I've always been partial to the idea that Jack used a ligature/cord to strangle his victims (Dr. Brownfield's theory)
The difference between a top button being undone or being torn open may be nothing more than the difference between a tight or loose fitting top button.

I wouldn't rule out the victim being responsible for this, in a desperate attempt to remove the ligature. There doesn't seem to be a rationale need for the killer to do that, unless he was looking for a necklace?

Hi Jon. Stride dying with her neck directly over a gutter or wheel rut is as peculiar to me as Jack the Ripper murdering Chapman in some random backyard that happens to have a leather apron (during the week when LA was Prime Suspect Numerous Uno). Not to say Stride staggered or he carried her; only that he may have adjusted her body around the place where she, uh, "dropped". Dropped, hm.. if only we knew how the cachous were scattered, we might be able to determine if she was assaulted while standing or while prostrate on the ground. My vocab is limited; so if prostrate doesn't work in that last sentence, feel free to modify.

Yea, I'm still sequencing to see if the Ripper's developed a general method of attack. Im not entirely certain that his blade could have been lightsaber sharp where Jack the Ripper could cut from front to spine (albeit both of them standing) with one swipe of the blade, seems like you would need more force (or, is it fulcrum?)... uh, leverage. I favor strangulation as well, Jon; and, I think he had success with it to varying degrees. Chapman is supposed to be wearing some black scarf (what happened to that thing anyways?) under her handkerchief, so (maybe) the extra padding makes for an unsuccessful throttling and Jack the Ripper has a fight on his hands.

I'd favor strangulation over, say, chloroform (Stride would have vomited up her cheese and powder, the Drs would have smelled it). If I knew how Liz wore her bonnet, I might be able to substantiate that she was already lying down when her throat was sliced open. The placement of the bonnet is a reason that I can't get behind her crawling for help unless she so happened to throw it before she died. If she wore the bonnet with the strings tied in the front, then surely they would have been cut... if she was assaulted while standing. I'm partial to the Ripper removing the bonnet and opening the top of her dress so that he could have better access to her throat. However, your idea about the necklace has interest.

The most mysterious aspects surrounding her death (besides the obvious) are the blood clots on the back of her hand and that blood-stained abrasion under her right arm. I have no good suggestions for either. That the clots were oblong ( as posted here recently) may have been caused by drops of blood off the edge of his blade, dunno.

[drstrange169]

>> ... if only we knew how the cachous were scattered<<

Wedo know, Blackwell scattered them. They were in the "packet" until he tried to open Mrs. Stride's hand, as per his testimony, when he was recalled to explain.

[caz]

And Elizabeth Long's appearance at the Chapman inquest being followed by the murder of a woman nicknamed Long Liz.

And Long Liz being taken [permanently] from Michael Kidney, shortly before a kidney was taken from Kate Eddowes.

[Abby Normal]

The oblong blood clots to the back of the hand: the blood oozed through her fingers as her hand goes instinctively to her cut throat and then seeps down to the back of her hand.

[Harry D]

But of course, the cry of Lipski aimed at a man of strong Jewish appearance would almost certainly be thrown by a Gentile thus casting doubt on the IWEC being involved in the strong anti-Semitic climate.

It's so obvious.