For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

In past forum debates about Jack the Ripper's mental state, I have pointed out that the lack of evidence at virtually all of the crime scenes and the silence that accompanied every single murder suggests a killer who was consciously covering his tracks - and by implication knew that what he was doing was wrong (or at least would be considered wrong by society).

Thus I argue for a sane Ripper - or at least not a raving lunatic who thought he was slaughtering horses.

To me, this suggests a killer who was sane enough and in control of himself enough to also have been able to plan and organize.

I assume, as many others do, that the Ripper picked up his victims on the street as if he wanted to use their services, allowed his victims to take him to a safe area (as knowing which areas were relatively safe and private was part of their job), and then subdued, killed, and mutilated them. Unfortunately, I do not have the evidence to truly prove this: we cannot rule out that the Ripper was not a "blitz" killer who lay in waiting for a passing victim, grabbed them, and killed them right there. The only evidence against a blitz killer is Lawende's testimony, but that won't do much to convince somebody who believes that Eddowes is not a ripper victim, or that Lawende didn't actually see Eddowes, or somebody who believes that Eddowes and whoever Lawende saw parted ways and Eddowes walked into Mitre Square alone.

(to me, Occam's razor rules out the second two scenarios, but stranger things have happened)

But even a blitz killer can be organized. You can envision a blitz killer who carefully picks out the locations at which he will lay in ambush, perhaps knowing the best spots because he uses prostitutes for sex on days he's not ripping. Even if we adopt a less organized model of the ripper, where he impulsively grabs women on the street to murder and mutilate then, to do that with the level of success the Whitechapel killer did requires at least some forethought about how you are going to subdue your victim when the impulse to kill comes.

totally agree with this post.

[Abby Normal]

This is going to be a problem anytime Ripper scholarship is done by somebody for whom the Whitechapel murders are simply a case study, rather than a life-long passion.

agree. and ive said it many times-the average poster on Casebook probably knows more about the ripper murders than Keppel and the FBI profilers.

[Jon Guy]

This is going to be a problem anytime Ripper scholarship is done by somebody for whom the Whitechapel murders are simply a case study, rather than a life-long passion.

True, and even if they are professionals, like FBI profilers who apply their procedures to the known facts, there is still the aspect of the historical side of things to take into consideration.

I do hope anyway, that I will always know more about the case than an FBI profiler, because really, they should be looking at more recent crimes in the US and not wasting their time on the Ripper murders.

[John G]

In past forum debates about Jack the Ripper's mental state, I have pointed out that the lack of evidence at virtually all of the crime scenes and the silence that accompanied every single murder suggests a killer who was consciously covering his tracks - and by implication knew that what he was doing was wrong (or at least would be considered wrong by society).

Thus I argue for a sane Ripper - or at least not a raving lunatic who thought he was slaughtering horses.

To me, this suggests a killer who was sane enough and in control of himself enough to also have been able to plan and organize.

I assume, as many others do, that the Ripper picked up his victims on the street as if he wanted to use their services, allowed his victims to take him to a safe area (as knowing which areas were relatively safe and private was part of their job), and then subdued, killed, and mutilated them. Unfortunately, I do not have the evidence to truly prove this: we cannot rule out that the Ripper was not a "blitz" killer who lay in waiting for a passing victim, grabbed them, and killed them right there. The only evidence against a blitz killer is Lawende's testimony, but that won't do much to convince somebody who believes that Eddowes is not a ripper victim, or that Lawende didn't actually see Eddowes, or somebody who believes that Eddowes and whoever Lawende saw parted ways and Eddowes walked into Mitre Square alone.

(to me, Occam's razor rules out the second two scenarios, but stranger things have happened)

But even a blitz killer can be organized. You can envision a blitz killer who carefully picks out the locations at which he will lay in ambush, perhaps knowing the best spots because he uses prostitutes for sex on days he's not ripping. Even if we adopt a less organized model of the ripper, where he impulsively grabs women on the street to murder and mutilate then, to do that with the level of success the Whitechapel killer did requires at least some forethought about how you are going to subdue your victim when the impulse to kill comes.

Yes, it's possible that the killer allowed the victims to take him to a relatively quiet location, although that presupposes that all the victims were soliciting, and I'm not totally convinced that was the case. Of course, such a strategy would still require the perpetrator to exercise a degree of constraint, a quality that seems to be absent from BS man.

I agree that JtR was probably not mentally ill, however, the Robert Napper precedent gives pause for thought. Napper was diagnosed with schizophrenia, and aspects of his crimes were certainly disorganized. However, they also contained highly organized elements: he marked his attacks on an A-Z, had medical notes on how to torture people and illustrations of the neck, showing human muscles work and interact, and marked maps in the A-Z with black dots, highlighting locations of assaults and surveillance points where he could spy on his intended victims without being seen.

[Joshua Rogan]

An indication of how much (or how little) effort Keppel put into the report can be seen in the first paragraph about Annie Chapman, where he clearly confuses her murder with Polly's. Whilst not immediately negating all his conclusions, it doesn't fill you with confidence if he can't even get the details of the crimes correct.

[John G]

An indication of how much (or how little) effort Keppel put into the report can be seen in the first paragraph about Annie Chapman, where he clearly confuses her murder with Polly's. Whilst not immediately negating all his conclusions, it doesn't fill you with confidence if he can't even get the details of the crimes correct.

I've just checked, and your're absolutely correct. Absolutely hilarious! I'm starting to loose faith in Keppel; this doesn't seem to have been a project that he was entirely committed to.

[Mirandola]

Yes, a paragraph has been misplaced by Keppel et. al. at the beginning of the Chapman account, and not picked up; and though the passage is dismissed as a conflicting account, there must be a suggestion of less than full engagement with the actual series of murders (there's also a confusion where the Table on p. 3 is introduced 'The 11 Whitechapel murders examined in this paper occurred over a 10-month span', while the table itself includes cases from April 1888 to February 1891).
These are unfortunate lapses, since the analyses by Keppel and his colleagues of the MO and signature evidence certainly do produce a consistent outline of 'the Ripper' (which is unaffected by the lapses noted above) and document how very rare that particular constellation of elements is, at least in the database analysed.

[Vincenzo]

"If mutilation was the key, why would the killer attack his victim next to a busy social club?"

Hello Harry,

You can also turn that around and ask why anybody would kill in that location. If the location was bad for Jack it was also bad for a non-Jack killer.

c.d.

I always thought it was possible that Stride refused an offer from her killer togo to a more discreet location and the murderer lost his cool and attacked her on the spot.

If it was indeed JtR (and I believe it was) then it is very possible that he had no concern for location while in the moment.

[Michael W Richards]

All we have are two women that are murdered within an hour of each other. Both of them have their throats cut but aside than that there is no evidence that the two murders are related. The only evidence that links them is a letter written by someone claiming to be the killer, which is mainly considered a hoax by most authorities on the subject.

If only this could be the baseline, but for many, its still just a boogeyman hunt.

[John Wheat]

The murder of Elizabeth Stride has long been considered the odd one out of the 'canonical five' murders. Down the years she has been ruled in and out by numerous Ripper authors and amateur sleuths but the consensus seems to be that she was probably a victim of the serial killer known as 'Jack the Ripper'.

The question is why?

Stride's throat was cut less than an hour before a Ripper-esque murder. Sure, the timing is convenient, but life is full of strange coincidences. The Ripper case certainly isn't an exception to happenstance, e.g. Eddowes giving the same name to the police as the next victim, and Sarah Brown having her throat cut in a domestic on the night of the Double Event.

The lack of mutilations. These are largely attributed to an interruption, hence the savagery of Eddowes' attack by an assumed frustrated Ripper. This is purely speculative. If mutilation was the key, why would the killer attack his victim next to a busy social club? Furthermore, the eyewitness description given by Schwartz of Stride's assailant doesn't jive with the previous murders. And if this man wasn't Stride's killer, it only leaves a small window of opportunity for another murderer to enter stage left.

All we have are two women that are murdered within an hour of each other. Both of them have their throats cut but aside than that there is no evidence that the two murders are related. The only evidence that links them is a letter written by someone claiming to be the killer, which is mainly considered a hoax by most authorities on the subject.

The only problem with not including Stride is that they were not as some would have you believe loads of knife wielding maniacs all running round killing women out on the streets in a small area of London all of a sudden.

[Tom_Wescott]

I always thought it was possible that Stride refused an offer from her killer togo to a more discreet location and the murderer lost his cool and attacked her on the spot.

If it was indeed JtR (and I believe it was) then it is very possible that he had no concern for location while in the moment.

That's completely possible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

I always thought it was possible that Stride refused an offer from her killer togo to a more discreet location and the murderer lost his cool and attacked her on the spot.

If it was indeed JtR (and I believe it was) then it is very possible that he had no concern for location while in the moment.

The problem is Dutfield's Yard was a much better location to commit a murder than, say, where Nichols and Chapman were killed-the street and someone's back yard-if only because it was cloaked in almost pitch black darkness.

[Tom_Wescott]

The problem is Dutfield's Yard was a much better location to commit a murder than, say, where Nichols and Chapman were killed-the street and someone's back yard-if only because it was cloaked in almost pitch black darkness.

It was a good place to commit a murder, albeit noisier and probably more stress-inducing for the Ripper, because of the open windows and singing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John G]

It was a good place to commit a murder, albeit noisier and probably more stress-inducing for the Ripper, because of the open windows and singing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom, during the period that Stride must have been killed, wasn't there only a handful of people remaining in the club? Could the singing have attracted Stride? Could her killer have enticed her into the Yard by claiming to be a club member and offering to gain her admittance?

[Robert St Devil]

Ugh, I hate being the last post on a page.

Still, this seemed the best thread for this observation linking the murders of Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes to the same killer. It's a minor tell-tale sign of the scene...

Dr. FW Blackwell states at the Elizabeth Stride inquest:

Her dress was undone at the top.

Dr. FG Brown states at the Catherine Eddowes inquest:

The upper part of the dress had been torn open.

I cant rightfully say why Jack the Ripper undid the tops of these women's dresses,; however, since the pattern appears in both places, it would seem like a similar hand was evident, judging by the opened dresses. In the case of Stride, I've been wondering if Jack the Ripper put his hand inside of her dress, causing that blood-stained abrasion under her right arm.