For what reason do we include Stride?

[Busy Beaver]

Just to add...if it was Kate Lawende saw outside Mite Square, then you have an example of how quickly this killer works. In Berner Street, depending on whom you believe, you either have almost 15 minutes after the body is discovered, or perhaps around 5. Alone with the body. Yet she seems untouched since she fell, and she is on her side, curled in fetal fashion. Not optimum abdominal mutilation posing. If you like Lawendes sighting, which I personally do not, then you have to consider what evidence in Kates murder is relevant when comparing to Liz's. What was accomplished in its totality, and in what time frame is very pertinent in that case.

The couple who Lawende saw would no doubt have been Kate and her killer, otherwise if they were a different couple, would they not have seen or heard anything whilst going in to Mitre Square? Assuming that Jack must have been in there with Kate, or she was already lying dead and this couple failed to spot her or anyone running away.

[Michael W Richards]

Just to add...if it was Kate Lawende saw outside Mite Square, then you have an example of how quickly this killer works. In Berner Street, depending on whom you believe, you either have almost 15 minutes after the body is discovered, or perhaps around 5. Alone with the body. Yet she seems untouched since she fell, and she is on her side, curled in fetal fashion. Not optimum abdominal mutilation posing. If you like Lawendes sighting, which I personally do not, then you have to consider what evidence in Kates murder is relevant when comparing to Liz's. What was accomplished in its totality, and in what time frame is very pertinent in that case.

[Michael W Richards]

The scarf evidence in this case suggests that it was used by the killer to grab the victim and to choke the victim. It was used that way when the knife is drawn across her throat and it remained tightened when she was found, which suggests that her head was closer to the ground than while standing and her head just dropped when the scarf was released. She might have been pulled back off her feet and to the ground, soiling her skirt by pulling and tightening that scarf. The killer just needs to cut her while holding the head off the ground with the scarf.

She also had bruising on her chest, might have been shoved or poked. A continuing encounter like the one described by Schwartz might explain some of that kind of interaction, but the problem is our best neutral witness, Fanny Mortimer, does not hear or see anyone on that street during her time at the door "off and on" aside from the young couple...which Brown also sees at 12:45, and only Goldstein passing the gates at 12:55 when at the door continuously.

If Schwartz's encounter actually took place in the passageway as he was leaving the club via the gates, then it all seems to fit better. Otherwise its a man who claims to be in an odd place at 12:45 for someone whose wife just moved to new dwellings that afternoon, and he saw something of an altercation with the soon to be murder victim minutes before the medical estimate of her throat cut, which no other witness corroborates and which is not part of the Inquest into the manner of her death in any format. Something unthinkable if the story was believed true as given, the altercation would obviously have great relevance to what happened to her due to its location and time proximity to her throat cut. But it isn't there.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

I was referring to Stride trying to push the B.S. man away (i.e. trying to separate herself from him) if he was dragging her back into the yard. The natural inclination is to open the palm to push rather than try to push with a closed fist. Possible but hard to believe the cachous could have remained in her hand without spiling if that is what she did.

On a side note, I have tried this with friends. Didn't tell them why beforehand. I tried to pull them and asked them to resist. Open palm every time.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Ah, sorry, didn't realize you meant Stride doing the pushing. Unfortunately, all we have to work with is Schwartz's account, which is along the lines of BS pulling her then throwing/pushing her to the ground. We don't know how she fell, nor does it include any indication that she pushed him back. Schwartz leaves, pipeman leaves, and that to me would be the time when BS, as Liz is getting up, either pushes her into the alley or she gets up and heads there towards the door (I'm assuming light was visible around the doorway from inside) to enter the club where she hears people looking to escape. And that's when he kills her. I don't think the attack, if it's BS, is more prolonged than that, so I don't think it turned into a shoving match, and it's relatively short so she's not clutching cachous except for that one set of pulls and pushes, and that doesn't seem to me to be different from what another attacker would have to do as well, leaving us with the cachous to explain in this second attack.

But yes, I agree, if the encounter with BS is suggested to be prolonged, with a lot of shoving back and forth, she would have dropped them. But since we know she didn't, those sorts of encounters can be ruled out. But ruling them out doesn't rule out all plausible encounters with BS, and personally Stride being killed almost immediately after what Schwartz describes seems to me to be likely what happened, and BS takes off because he's next to a club with people awake and making noise, Stride is reported as yelling 3 times, though not very loudly which someone might have heard, and there's all this other foottraffic about. I know it's a bizarre choice to go on and kill someone in that situation, but JtR (presuming BS is JtR of course), made a lot of choices that really don't make much sense but showed he was willing to do things that appear unfathomably risky.

I think we envision the encounter very differently, but that's hardly surprising because we have so little information to work with and to try and get an idea of what happened we have to fill in the details. Those details, otherwise known as opinions, are filled in by each of us very differently. I agree that your presentation of events is plausible, and I'm not insisting that my description is the true one, only that I think it covers all the evidence in a plausible way. But my above description of the events are not evidence, just a hypothesis among many. I have a preference for it because it doesn't require the addition of another unknown person coming into play as that introduces a character for which we have no evidence to support even existing. However, we have very little evidence to constrain us, so we know we're missing a lot of details, so including a newcommer, while it puts "strain' on a hypothesis, I don't think it reaches breaking point, meaning the "alternative" is not ruled out so it too requires consideration (which I've been leaving in your hands for the purpose of this discussion, but that doesn't mean I don't see merit in it).

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.,

Sorry, missed that bit earlier. But if you strike out to push someone and hit them with the heel of your palms, that's still going to leave bruises if it's done violently, making it more than just a placing of the hands and a shove. He's throwing her around, which also suggests something a bit more than a simple "place and push" type thing. While BS's manhandling might not have appeared to have had murderous intensity, I don't think it can be viewed as a minor pushing either. It seems to have left bruises, so it was violent enough in intensity to do that, but not of sufficient ferocity to result in Stride screaming out for fear of her life. It's of a level of physicality that leads to scenarios of the sort I've suggested (but yes, I know, other scenarios are possible).

We don't know the specifics of things like how she fell, on her side, on her bottom, etc. But if she's holding the cachous during BS's assault, we know she didn't fall on them so open hand falling wouldn't work. But as one can fall in different ways, open hand falling isn't part of the evidence that we are beholden to be constrained by when comparing hypotheses to the evidence. And, not falling open handed is not particularly uncommon, so it's relying on anything highly improbable. At least not in my view.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

I was referring to Stride trying to push the B.S. man away (i.e. trying to separate herself from him) if he was dragging her back into the yard. The natural inclination is to open the palm to push rather than try to push with a closed fist. Possible but hard to believe the cachous could have remained in her hand without spiling if that is what she did.

On a side note, I have tried this with friends. Didn't tell them why beforehand. I tried to pull them and asked them to resist. Open palm every time.

c.d.

[Observer]

It's all relative, isn't it?

I'll bet he didn't choose that spot in expectation of being interrupted, being seen by dozens of witnesses, and being captured within the hour?

He must have sensed a degree of safety for as long as he needed.

He didn't choose the spot full stop. Annie Chapman saw to that. It was revealed at inquest that the passage and yard were being used by lets say shady characters. He was definitely batting on a sticky wicket, entering that backyard. Although considering the records he was more of a bowler than a batsman.

[Wickerman]

The backyard of 29 Hanbury Street, in the ever brightening gloom was a safe environment?

It's all relative, isn't it?

I'll bet he didn't choose that spot in expectation of being interrupted, being seen by dozens of witnesses, and being captured within the hour?

He must have sensed a degree of safety for as long as he needed.

[Observer]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

The backyard of 29 Hanbury Street, in the ever brightening gloom was a safe environment?

[Abby Normal]

Hi c.d.,

I'm of a different opinion on that. We know Stride had two bruises under each collar bone from the medical reports, and these would suggest that the "pushing" involved strikes against her hard enough to leave those marks. BS actions account for those, but indicate this is more than just a pushing away of someone making an unwanted proposition. Also, if that is all BS was doing, the incident as described by Schwartz is more prolonged than called for if BS is simply getting rid of an unwanted advance.

Also, we don't know when Stride put the cachous in her hand to begin with. It seems to me, though, if she's holding them when BS starts his manhandling of her, she would grasp them. And as he appears willing to continue doing so once Schwartz and Pipeman are spotted, I see no reason to conclude he isn't willing to continue to do after they leave. Yes, I can see why that might not be the most rational decision, but neither is killing her (by BS or anyone else).

BS either then forces her into the alley, or she gets away and escapes into it, still holding the cachous, which there has been no opportunity to re-pocket. If she flees, he grabs her scarf, tightening it, and perhaps causing her to fall but she doesn't drop them. He then cuts her throat, an escalation she was not expecting (given the pushing and shoving, while violent enough to bruise her, has been argued to be not apparently murderous in intensity).

And if it's JtR, the attack went poorly as compared to his previous, there's too much activity in the streets (Schwartz, Pipeman), there's the sound of people in the club (unlike Hanbury Street, where all were still sleeping), so he leaves. Shortly thereafter, Deimshutz shows up.

Something like the above accounts for why she's holding them. Otherwise, BS leaves, another person comes along, she's comfortable enough after having been pushed around and thrown to the ground in this location to entertain this newcommer, who then must get her to the ground by some violent means by which again she does not drop the cachous. The same problem again exists. I don't see how, or why, replacing BS with someone else who assaults her while she's holding the cachous makes any real difference, particularly as this newcommer is supposed to assault her even more violently than BS.

Obviously, we see that differently, but that's the nature of having little evidence, we have to speculate on how events unfolded, and those speculations will either seem plausible or not to different people. I find the above to be plausible (not saying it's correct, just saying it's plausible), but that's an opinion, and those vary from person to person.

- Jeff

yes yes and yes!

also, we have to remember that shes seen by several witnesses over the course of some time with who I think is probably the same man-wearing a peaked cap-Marshall, Smith, and Schwartz's BS man. I think this is the ripper-peaked cap man is also seen by lawende and company later, and also the anon church street sighting of a man wearing a peaked cap. I would place my bets on this man being the same and the ripper.

hes trying to schmooz her-get her into a secluded spot. but shes not looking for a punter, probably just a fun night out and or keeping an eye out for a new boyfriend since she recently broke up with Kidney. Shes not going to a secluded spot. The ripper/BS man/peaked cap man finally loses his temper and kills her. and takes off to find a more willing victim.

[Michael W Richards]

The timing of events that night is very muddled despite the fact that many people seem to just accept a certain version. There 3 witnesses at least, ( 2 club and 1 outsider), that stated they were by Louis and the body near 12:45, one witness who claims to have seen 2 men on the street and the victim in an altercation with one of them at 12:45, one that stated he was sent for help by himself at that time...there is Lave who says he was at the gate until around that time, at which time Eagle says he arrived back at the club, Liz is cut around 12:55-56, just as Goldstein walks by, and Louis says he arrives 4 minutes later, to quote "precisely".

Yet Fanny Mortimer, a neighbor who seems to be less than enchanted with the club on her street, is at her door to the street off and on from 12:30 until 12:50, at which time she stays at the door until 1am....the same time as Louis says he arrived. She saw a young couple during that time. Heard nothing while she was not at her door, and her sighting of Goldstein at around 12:55 verifies the portion of her story that concerns the last 10 minutes of the hour. She saw no cart coming or arriving at 1am. She heard no Lipski being shouted. She saw no-one smoking a pipe.

Can everyone be correct? Of course not. Even with a few minutes margin of error there are unexplainable contradictions. Unless of course you consider carefully the statements from the people who would lose money and jobs if there were any lingering suspicion on the club. One thought to be run and attended by anarchists by the Police.

[JeffHamm]

Sigh, that last bit should read "And, not falling open handed is not particularly uncommon, so it's not relying on anything highly improbable. At least not in my view."

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,
...
When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.
...

Hi c.d.,

Sorry, missed that bit earlier. But if you strike out to push someone and hit them with the heel of your palms, that's still going to leave bruises if it's done violently, making it more than just a placing of the hands and a shove. He's throwing her around, which also suggests something a bit more than a simple "place and push" type thing. While BS's manhandling might not have appeared to have had murderous intensity, I don't think it can be viewed as a minor pushing either. It seems to have left bruises, so it was violent enough in intensity to do that, but not of sufficient ferocity to result in Stride screaming out for fear of her life. It's of a level of physicality that leads to scenarios of the sort I've suggested (but yes, I know, other scenarios are possible).

We don't know the specifics of things like how she fell, on her side, on her bottom, etc. But if she's holding the cachous during BS's assault, we know she didn't fall on them so open hand falling wouldn't work. But as one can fall in different ways, open hand falling isn't part of the evidence that we are beholden to be constrained by when comparing hypotheses to the evidence. And, not falling open handed is not particularly uncommon, so it's relying on anything highly improbable. At least not in my view.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

Hello Wick,

Time to mutilate and an environment in which he felt safe enough to do so are two different things.

c.d.

If she was killed at 12:46 (the 30 min. option), then the killer had an extra 10 minutes and he had to begin the attack immediately Schwartz ran off, but BS-man was still there, so how long before he staggered off? This sounds too soon to me, the killer needs to wait for things to settle down.

If she was killed at 12:56 (the 20 min. option), then we might ask what Stride & this man were doing for the next 10 minutes? At least that would make more sense to me, he waited for BS-man to leave and be sure no-one else was in the street, and no-one coming from the club into the yard. Wait a few minutes for things to settle down.

I think the latter option sounds more practical, yet he was still interrupted by Deimschutz.

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

But if Stride has the cachous in her hand (and remember they are only wrapped in tissue paper) how likely is it that they survive her being pushed to the ground if she puts out her hands flat to break her fall which is what people do naturally? And if she again spreads her hands and puts her weight on them in order to push her self back up (again a natural reaction) they have to withstand that as well. And if she is being dragged into the yard to her death is her first thought I really need to protect these cachous? When you push someone away you don't do it with a closed fist you used the palm of your hand.

It seems to me the logical conclusion is that she didn't have them in her hand when thrown to the ground but took them out expecting to entertain a client after the BS man had left. Her death at the hands of her killer (who I believe was Jack) was so swift and unexpected that she clutched them in death.

c.d.

Hi c.d.,

Depends upon how she falls, to her right side, then left hand holding the cachous doesn't some into play. Once pushed/forced/fleeing into the alley, particularly if the scarf was grabbed resulting in her tripping (probably landing on a knee, not fully prone), then now she's in a position that the newcomer has to somehow get her in without dropping the cachous, so we're at the same point - hence, I don't see why BS makes it improbable.

To me, if there's a newcomer, who attacks her suddenly and unexpectedly, that would be a 2nd attack on her that still would have afforded sufficient time to open her hands and grab at him to fend herself because this assault has to start with her standing and it has to be long enough to get her to the ground and cut her throat. I would think a 2nd physical attack on her would be even more likely to result in her dropping them than if BS, during his attack in which I'm suggesting she was already holding them throughout because it wasn't of murderous intensity, simply because I think it gets Stride "to the ground" during that encounter.

We're of different opinions in the relative plausibilities, which amounts to differences of opinions. I don't think either of us is necessarily wrong, but we can take comfort in knowing that one of us is; either it was BS or it was someone else after all.

- Jeff

[c.d.]

Hi c.d.
I want to say that one of the odd little mysteries of this case was the cachous paper. I'm no expert on the cachous industry but it seems like, if Liz had purchased them, the seller could have been traced by the cachous paper wrapping. However I can't say with certainty that this was the case, I'd have to work to remember where I saw that note.

Hello Robert,

I am afraid you lost me here. This would tell us what? And it wouldn't rule out the possibility that they were given to her.

c.d.