For what reason do we include Stride?

[Joshua Rogan]

Exactly Sam,

Id say that there was almost no chance. If a prostitute only ever solicited within say half a dozen streets then it would have been reasonable to suggest that she’d have gotten to know the beats but they couldn’t have known or remembered too many.

Unless there was a LVP prostitute version of ‘The Knowledge.”

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

Exactly Sam,

Id say that there was almost no chance. If a prostitute only ever solicited within say half a dozen streets then it would have been reasonable to suggest that she’d have gotten to know the beats but they couldn’t have known or remembered too many.

Unless there was a LVP prostitute version of ‘The Knowledge.”

[JeffHamm]

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I'm assuming these on the street encounters were not prolonged romantic interludes and were completed in the space of 5 minutes or so and didn't involve dancing and dinner, so if you knew the area was free for more than twice that, it makes perfect sense.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

[Trevor Marriott]

That's much my view as well. I think JtR probably met Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes near, by not right at, the location of their murder and after a short negotiation were taken there by the victim themselves (as you indicate). So, while he could have just bumped into Eddowes walking through Mitre Square, I generally suspect he met her nearby, they may have been waiting at the end of Church Passage because Eddowes knew the PC would pass by the far end, and that would give them sufficient time once he passed through. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, so they would have seen him go past, giving them the full 12-14 minutes. And if she reassured him of that information, he now knows how much time he has.

- Jeff

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I certainly agree that all of the locations were high risk with Hanbury Street being the riskiest. Someone opening that backdoor leaves the ripper trapped and with only three options. To push past the interloper and escape leaving a witness to identify him. To kill the witness. Or to try and scale the fence and escape via another backyard. Not great options. We can only suspect that Annie had convinced him that this was a safe spot (either that or the killer was completely unworried by risk.) I wonder if the ripper simply “bumped into” Catherine as she walked through Mitre Square or they ran into each other close by and Catherine suggested Mitre Square as a safe spot. After all, being caught in the act by a Constable was simply a risk of the job for her. The same couldn’t have been said for the ripper so he might simply have assumed that an experienced prostitute would know the areas with the least police presence which gave him a level of confidence that they were unlikely to be disturbed. Also, with the square having three exits, he had two options for escape should he hear someone approach from one of the exits.

That's much my view as well. I think JtR probably met Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes near, by not right at, the location of their murder and after a short negotiation were taken there by the victim themselves (as you indicate). So, while he could have just bumped into Eddowes walking through Mitre Square, I generally suspect he met her nearby, they may have been waiting at the end of Church Passage because Eddowes knew the PC would pass by the far end, and that would give them sufficient time once he passed through. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, so they would have seen him go past, giving them the full 12-14 minutes. And if she reassured him of that information, he now knows how much time he has.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

Fair enough but the cachous were only penny candy. Would trying to hold on to them be worth a broken wrist if thrown down with force or take precedence over her very life if being dragged back into the yard?

c.d.

Well, given the description we have to work with by Schwartz, that he grabbed her a pull towards the street, then spinning her back towards the pavement (sidewalk), that all sounds like more or less one motion to me. She's holding something, and I could see the initial response to be grip it tighter, regardless of what it was. The fall isn't described, and it doesn't sound to me like a full prone type thing, but could just be falling to a knee, again, not something that would necessitate dropping anything. It's the final bit, swinging her around towards the pavement that makes me think she's now got BS between her and the street and she may have started to run down the alley (possibly because she knows there's a door there into the club, so a place she could escape to), and he grabs her scarf just inside the alley (now she's back on to him), which quickly ends up with her on the ground and her throat cut. That last bit, from scarf onwards, seems no more than what a new entrance to the scene would have to do anyway, so either the cachous remain through BS doing those things, or through a 2nd assailant doing much the same (the scarf needs to be grasped, she needs to go from upright to ground level, and through all that she needs to be grasping the cachous). This, in my reasoning, is why I don't see introducing a newcomer as overcoming the problem of the cachous.

The idea of a newcomer and Stride, entering the alley together willing, and then the newcomer blitz attacking (which, really, is what is described as BS doing) would have Stride and the newcomer facing each other. And that, I think, is more likely to lead to her dropping the cachous as she grabs back. If she's not facing him, as per above, I think opening her hands is less likely (or at least, it's more likely for her not to).

I think it's worth exploring all of these different ideas, and in some ways, we can narrow down to some extent the sort of things that work. But in the end, with so little to work with, it's probably not possible to narrow it down to the extent that we can be objectively sure one way or the other. The description of BS could be describing the same person as described by Lawende, but both descriptions are fairly generic for the time and so could also result if they saw different people. We don't have evidence of different people, and only the possibility of the same. That, again, while not definitive one way or the other, means there's nothing there to further suggest BS needs to be replaced with a newcomer.

These are, of course, all hypothetical descriptions and opinions and I'm sure there are hypothetical versions where a newcomer gets past the concerns I've raised. For example, as Stride leads the newcomer into the alley, getting out the cachous, he then grabs her scarf from behind, starting his attack without her facing him. But again, we're now describing the end sequence of what I've suggested as a possible continuation of the BS encounter. The difference, of course, is that if it's BS we don't need to add the complexity of a new person, who also suddenly attacks Stride, etc, and we've not improved the quality of fit with regards to the evidence we do have (as it's the same basic situation), and who also fits the generic descriptions of BS, and the man described by Lawende and company. (Accepting, of course, there are reasons to question each of these sources of evidence - I'm just reluctant to discard something if it generally fits in without much difficulty).

- Jeff

[c.d.]

And if you do this, compare the results between hands empty and when they are holding something small, like the tissue paper wrapped cachous, and tell them they do not want to drop it if possible. The test needs to test the situations described in the various possibilities.

- Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Fair enough but the cachous were only penny candy. Would trying to hold on to them be worth a broken wrist if thrown down with force or take precedence over her very life if being dragged back into the yard?

c.d.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

While Hanbury Street strikes me as the most risky of all the locations due to the lack of obvious escape routes, the time of day (with the sun coming up), also strikes me as adding to that. However, one of the locations has to be the most risky, and another will have to be the least risky (that's what ordering things does after all). And really, all of the locations are high risk locations, with only Kelly's being someone less so given it's inside. But, Kelly would have brought JtR to her room, which parallels what appears to be the case in the other murders (apart from Stride, if one goes for BS, as he seems to have attacked her in the street, and they end up in the Alley rather than the other way round - others view this differently of course, and Stride enters the alley with another subsequent person, but I digress).

So to me, all of the outdoor locations, including Stride (whether rightly or wrongly) are all extremely high risk, and in the same ballpark in that respect. I believe during Eddowes inquest it was testified by one of the doctor's that Eddowes' injuries would take 5 minutes. That's less than was estimated for Chapman, but I think the estimation for Chapman was based upon what appeared to be greater care taken, but that could just be because he could see better. And 5 minutes for the attack on Eddowes would fit with the known beat times.

Also, one of the PCs beats took him up Church Passage, which had a lamp at the Mitre Square end. That would impede his view into Mitre Square (hindering his ability to see JtR and Eddowes in the darkest corner), while highlighting him to JtR. If JtR leaves when the PC turns around, he could be out of there in time to avoid detection. Years ago I wrote a program to simulate the two PCs on their beats and JtR as leaving Mitre Square at the same speed as a patrolling PC, and things work quite easily using that as the trigger for him to leave. There's a window of time around that too that works, of course, but just saying.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I certainly agree that all of the locations were high risk with Hanbury Street being the riskiest. Someone opening that backdoor leaves the ripper trapped and with only three options. To push past the interloper and escape leaving a witness to identify him. To kill the witness. Or to try and scale the fence and escape via another backyard. Not great options. We can only suspect that Annie had convinced him that this was a safe spot (either that or the killer was completely unworried by risk.) I wonder if the ripper simply “bumped into” Catherine as she walked through Mitre Square or they ran into each other close by and Catherine suggested Mitre Square as a safe spot. After all, being caught in the act by a Constable was simply a risk of the job for her. The same couldn’t have been said for the ripper so he might simply have assumed that an experienced prostitute would know the areas with the least police presence which gave him a level of confidence that they were unlikely to be disturbed. Also, with the square having three exits, he had two options for escape should he hear someone approach from one of the exits.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure you know this but I think it makes a difference.
The church at the bottom of Houndsditch (the next street over from Duke Street), on Aldgate, was St. Botolphs, locally known as "The Church of Prostitutes".

I was aware of the "prostitutes' church" story, but hasn't that been questioned as a bit of myth? Even if it wasn't, St Botolph's isn't Church Passage or Duke Street, and it was a rainy night. The odds of a couple other than Eddowes and her killer being seen chatting at the very entrance to Mitre Square minutes before Eddowes was killed there has to have been rather small.

[JeffHamm]

Just a question but if we suggest that the injuries inflicted on Catherine Eddowes don’t point to a killer that felt he was in imminent danger of being caught, is this situation so vastly different to Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street? Granted that Eddowes was more extensively mutilated but Annie was still killed in someone’s backyard after all with a large number of occupants in the house (I can’t recall how many) and neighbours on both sides with windows overlooking the yard. Yet the killer still killed and mutilated her extensively. With Eddowes the extent of her injuries were based on how much time the killer actually had with her undisturbed as opposed to the time that he felt that he might have had. If he’d have heard a Constable’s footsteps 2 or 3 minutes earlier then he’d have left Catherine with less extensive mutilations.

Hi Herlock,

While Hanbury Street strikes me as the most risky of all the locations due to the lack of obvious escape routes, the time of day (with the sun coming up), also strikes me as adding to that. However, one of the locations has to be the most risky, and another will have to be the least risky (that's what ordering things does after all). And really, all of the locations are high risk locations, with only Kelly's being someone less so given it's inside. But, Kelly would have brought JtR to her room, which parallels what appears to be the case in the other murders (apart from Stride, if one goes for BS, as he seems to have attacked her in the street, and they end up in the Alley rather than the other way round - others view this differently of course, and Stride enters the alley with another subsequent person, but I digress).

So to me, all of the outdoor locations, including Stride (whether rightly or wrongly) are all extremely high risk, and in the same ballpark in that respect. I believe during Eddowes inquest it was testified by one of the doctor's that Eddowes' injuries would take 5 minutes. That's less than was estimated for Chapman, but I think the estimation for Chapman was based upon what appeared to be greater care taken, but that could just be because he could see better. And 5 minutes for the attack on Eddowes would fit with the known beat times.

Also, one of the PCs beats took him up Church Passage, which had a lamp at the Mitre Square end. That would impede his view into Mitre Square (hindering his ability to see JtR and Eddowes in the darkest corner), while highlighting him to JtR. If JtR leaves when the PC turns around, he could be out of there in time to avoid detection. Years ago I wrote a program to simulate the two PCs on their beats and JtR as leaving Mitre Square at the same speed as a patrolling PC, and things work quite easily using that as the trigger for him to leave. There's a window of time around that too that works, of course, but just saying.

- Jeff

[Wickerman]

With respect to the description of the victim (Eddowes), Swanson wrote:
"....but to the best of his (Lawende's) belief the clothing of the deceased, which was black was similar to that worn by the woman whom he had seen."

In reality Eddowes wore a black jacket trimmed with fur, and a dark green chintz skirt with a Michaelmas daisy & Gordon Lily pattern.

So, Lawende saw a woman in black clothing?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Just a question but if we suggest that the injuries inflicted on Catherine Eddowes don’t point to a killer that felt he was in imminent danger of being caught, is this situation so vastly different to Annie Chapman in Hanbury Street? Granted that Eddowes was more extensively mutilated but Annie was still killed in someone’s backyard after all with a large number of occupants in the house (I can’t recall how many) and neighbours on both sides with windows overlooking the yard. Yet the killer still killed and mutilated her extensively. With Eddowes the extent of her injuries were based on how much time the killer actually had with her undisturbed as opposed to the time that he felt that he might have had. If he’d have heard a Constable’s footsteps 2 or 3 minutes earlier then he’d have left Catherine with less extensive mutilations.

[Wickerman]

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes,.....

Yes but, the resemblance was limited to her clothes, nothing else. Her clothes "looked similar" (according to Swanson), whatever that means, colour, pattern, what?
I can't imagine Eddowes was the only woman wearing dark clothes.
Lawende was not asked to identify the body because he had not seen her face.

......were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

I'm sure you know this but I think it makes a difference.
The church at the bottom of Houndsditch (the next street over from Duke Street), on Aldgate, was St. Botolphs, locally known as "The Church of Prostitutes". This was the one spot in the city where they could find haven from being arrested. To suggest the streets were empty is probably a bit over the top given the number of prostitutes that frequented the land around the church.

[Sam Flynn]

Brown saw a young woman whom he took for the middle aged woman murdered, at 12:45, Mrs Long saw someone who looked like Annie at 5:30, that part of the equation can be addressed by other examples. I agree that the foot traffic would have been low, but I can think of at least 5 police out and about near that area which to me suggests that some also likely encountered night walkers. Lawende and his buds were out.

Those other sightings happened in far more populous parts of town. The area around Mitre Square wouldn't have been too busy at the best of times - it wasn't as if it had much going for it, from the POV of a casual pedestrian. After all, Lawende and co were only in the vicinity because their club was there.

Things like the tracing of the navel, the cutting of the colon, the face, the apron...I don't see those as being done by someone who felt he was in imminent danger of being caught.

Which is congruent with the fact that that Mitre Square and its environs was a comparatively quiet location.