For what reason do we include Stride?

[Michael W Richards]

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes, were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

Brown saw a young woman whom he took for the middle aged woman murdered, at 12:45, Mrs Long saw someone who looked like Annie at 5:30, that part of the equation can be addressed by other examples. I agree that the foot traffic would have been low, but I can think of at least 5 police out and about near that area which to me suggests that some also likely encountered night walkers. Lawende and his buds were out.

Things like the tracing of the navel, the cutting of the colon, the face, the apron...I don't see those as being done by someone who felt he was in imminent danger of being caught. Like Marys de-engineering, that guy thought he had the time to do those creative cuts. Polly and Annies killer cut the victims in a way that was intended to grant access easier, access to what they wanted. Not a lot of superfluous cutting.

[Wickerman]

He didn't choose the spot full stop. Annie Chapman saw to that. It was revealed at inquest that the passage and yard were being used by lets say shady characters. He was definitely batting on a sticky wicket, entering that backyard. Although considering the records he was more of a bowler than a batsman.

Agreed, Chapman chose the spot, but she didn't choose to be attacked there, that was his choice. So he chose that spot to attack her. Thats basically what I meant.
She chose the place for the sexual encounter, but it was his choice whether to attack her there which means it must have been suitable for that brief moment in time.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Abby,

I beg of you, sir please learn to spell cachous correctly.

You are right. I don't think the B.S.man's encounter with Stride was a big deal. My point was addressed to those who believe the B.S. man killed her. Thus your confusion. It is possible that she went into the yard voluntarily but I think that highly unlikely. Now if the B.S. man dragged her as some believe, I think it is reasonable to assume that Stride tried to fend him off in which case I find it hard to believe that the cachous survived that.

Now I know you hate the cachous argument. But it is something that can be tested to some degree. Ask your friends to throw themselves on the couch or bed and see if they catch themselves with their palm open. Then tell them you are going to try to drag them against their will and ask them to resist. See if their hand is open or in a fist as they try to push you away. And if you come back and say hey c.d. I tried this with ten people and nobody had an open palm I will have to reconsider things.

Now even if all ten you test have an open palm it doesn't mean that Stride could not have held on to the cachous. The best we can do is determine probability and what is more likely. But even if we toss out the cachous theory the B.S. man as Stride's killer still holds a lot of red flags.

c.d.

And if you do this, compare the results between hands empty and when they are holding something small, like the tissue paper wrapped cachous, and tell them they do not want to drop it if possible. The test needs to test the situations described in the various possibilities.

- Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Not very likely sam. And this man was also wearing a peaked cap like the other witnesses all describe.

Indeed so. I'm as sure as I can be that Lawende - not to mention Levy and Harris - saw Eddowes with her killer, minutes before her death.

[Abby Normal]

Gesundheit

c.d.

Thank you. Lol

[c.d.]

Gesundheit

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I beg of you, sir please learn to spell cachous correctly.

You are right. I don't think the B.S.man's encounter with Stride was a big deal. My point was addressed to those who believe the B.S. man killed her. Thus your confusion. It is possible that she went into the yard voluntarily but I think that highly unlikely. Now if the B.S. man dragged her as some believe, I think it is reasonable to assume that Stride tried to fend him off in which case I find it hard to believe that the cachous survived that.

Now I know you hate the cachous argument. But it is something that can be tested to some degree. Ask your friends to throw themselves on the couch or bed and see if they catch themselves with their palm open. Then tell them you are going to try to drag them against their will and ask them to resist. See if their hand is open or in a fist as they try to push you away. And if you come back and say hey c.d. I tried this with ten people and nobody had an open palm I will have to reconsider things.

Now even if all ten you test have an open palm it doesn't mean that Stride could not have held on to the cachous. The best we can do is determine probability and what is more likely. But even if we toss out the cachous theory the B.S. man as Stride's killer still holds a lot of red flags.

c.d.

Cashoo! ; )

[c.d.]

HI CD
what I find hard to fathom with your account is you are constantly trying to downplay BS mans assault of Stride as no big deal, and not even an attack or an assault. yet you want it violent enough that she must drop the cashoo. which is it?

Hi Abby,

I beg of you, sir please learn to spell cachous correctly.

You are right. I don't think the B.S.man's encounter with Stride was a big deal. My point was addressed to those who believe the B.S. man killed her. Thus your confusion. It is possible that she went into the yard voluntarily but I think that highly unlikely. Now if the B.S. man dragged her as some believe, I think it is reasonable to assume that Stride tried to fend him off in which case I find it hard to believe that the cachous survived that.

Now I know you hate the cachous argument. But it is something that can be tested to some degree. Ask your friends to throw themselves on the couch or bed and see if they catch themselves with their palm open. Then tell them you are going to try to drag them against their will and ask them to resist. See if their hand is open or in a fist as they try to push you away. And if you come back and say hey c.d. I tried this with ten people and nobody had an open palm I will have to reconsider things.

Now even if all ten you test have an open palm it doesn't mean that Stride could not have held on to the cachous. The best we can do is determine probability and what is more likely. But even if we toss out the cachous theory the B.S. man as Stride's killer still holds a lot of red flags.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes, were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

Not very likely sam. And this man was also wearing a peaked cap like the other witnesses all describe.

[Sam Flynn]

There were 3 entrances/exits to Mitre Square, one entered by Watkins, 1 entered by Harvey, and the carriageway entrance. If Lawende actually saw Kate, and he said he didn't really get a good look at either person and couldn't identify Sailor Man 10 days later, and the time estimate was correct, the killer had to get Kate into the square, subdue her, do all the cuts and the ripping tearing of the apron section and leave the square before Watkins enters at approx. 1:44,..within approx. 8 minutes. Not likely.

How likely is it that a different couple, one of whom at least vaguely resembled Eddowes, were seen at the entrance to Mitre Square within minutes of her being murdered in Mitre Square? And this, remember, on a rainy night in a rather quiet part of town, which was neither heavily populated nor thronging with people that night.

[Busy Beaver]

Why do you feel that is so axiomatic? Kate could have said a goodnight to that man and walked alone into the dark square and into the arms of the Ripper.

You know I never thought of that. Lawende and co said they did not look back to see where the couple went.

[Michael W Richards]

The couple who Lawende saw would no doubt have been Kate and her killer, otherwise if they were a different couple, would they not have seen or heard anything whilst going in to Mitre Square? Assuming that Jack must have been in there with Kate, or she was already lying dead and this couple failed to spot her or anyone running away.

There were 3 entrances/exits to Mitre Square, one entered by Watkins, 1 entered by Harvey, and the carriageway entrance. If Lawende actually saw Kate, and he said he didn't really get a good look at either person and couldn't identify Sailor Man 10 days later, and the time estimate was correct, the killer had to get Kate into the square, subdue her, do all the cuts and the ripping tearing of the apron section and leave the square before Watkins enters at approx. 1:44,..within approx. 8 minutes. Not likely.

But If you would like to have this murder married with Liz Strides by the killer, and you accept Lawendes sighting, then you really have to pull a rabbit out of a hat to explain why no mutilations on Stride.

Remember...the contemporary police speculated openly that she may have been killed elsewhere and brought there,....and there were lots of vacant warehouses in there.

[Sam Flynn]

Why do you feel that is so axiomatic? Kate could have said a goodnight to that man and walked alone into the dark square and into the arms of the Ripper.

Unlikely, and desperately unlucky. Besides, it had been raining heavily that night, and not too many people were out and about. If the Ripper had been hanging around Mitre Square on the off-chance of a woman coming by - an unlikely enough place to seek such prey even in dry weather - he'd have been soaked to the skin by the time Kate turned up.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Jeff,

I was referring to Stride trying to push the B.S. man away (i.e. trying to separate herself from him) if he was dragging her back into the yard. The natural inclination is to open the palm to push rather than try to push with a closed fist. Possible but hard to believe the cachous could have remained in her hand without spiling if that is what she did.

On a side note, I have tried this with friends. Didn't tell them why beforehand. I tried to pull them and asked them to resist. Open palm every time.

c.d.

HI CD
what I find hard to fathom with your account is you are constantly trying to downplay BS mans assault of Stride as no big deal, and not even an attack or an assault. yet you want it violent enough that she must drop the cashoo. which is it?

[APerno]

The couple who Lawende saw would no doubt have been Kate and her killer, otherwise if they were a different couple, would they not have seen or heard anything whilst going in to Mitre Square? Assuming that Jack must have been in there with Kate, or she was already lying dead and this couple failed to spot her or anyone running away.

Why do you feel that is so axiomatic? Kate could have said a goodnight to that man and walked alone into the dark square and into the arms of the Ripper.