For what reason do we include Stride?

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

Your whole argument simply boils down to if A then B. In other words, if you can show that the club had a motive for engaging in a conspiracy then it absolutely has to follow that they did in fact put that plan into action.

I simply don't see a self preservation need on the part of the club. Simply cooperating with the police seems an equally valid strategy and one that doesn't entail the whole thing blowing up in their face with resultant jail time. You have shown zero evidence that the club actually engaged in a conspiracy. Simply having a motive is not the same as evidence.

As for myself and others living in a vacuum, there seems to be a little pot and kettle thing going on if you get my drift.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

We don't know that's true for all witenesses, besides the point I was making was that the chances of a "false positive" in Eddowes' case would be lower because of the poor weather conditions and the comparatively low population/pedestrian density in that part of town, compared to the heart of Spitalfields and St George's in the East, both of which were busier than the area around Church Passage.

We know its true for the ones I mentioned, why not for Lawende? The volume of street traffic in that area that nights isnt well documented, but Ive no reason to accpet that Kate and Sailor men were the only ones about. I know 3 Jewish men who were also there outdoors for one example.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Harry,

You and I usually agree but I am going to disagree on this one. Just because the club had a motive doesn't NECESSARILY mean that they therefore were involved in a conspiracy. If this were the first murder in the area I might be more inclined to accept the conspiracy theory but it wasn't and I am not aware of people or establishments near the other murder sites becoming immediate suspects. To me, a much more reasonable course of action would have been for the club to cooperate completely with the investigation which it appears they did.

You say Schwartz popped up very quickly and conveniently but how does he differ from all the other witnesses in that respect? Is it so hard to accept that he was simply on his way home?

And as for the slur, if he had a pronounced Jewish appearance why would an antisemetic slur being thrown his way from an angry B.S. man be so out of the ordinary?

I suspect you and Michael had a few beers together.

c.d

No, the reason Harry suggested what he did is because he doesnt live in a "all murders are by the ripper" vacuum like yourself and others. You seem to comprehend that there was a Motive called Self Preservation present, yet you defer to a motiveless madman anyway. Thats the problem with this study cd, people set aside far more reasonable ideas for ones that require the mad killer change his patterns almost every murder. Harry is correct, Schwartzs claims serve the purposes of anyone who seeks Self Preservation at that club rather well, and since we know now that he knew Wess, and that he is an immigrant Jew like the vast majority of that club, maybe not so hard to understand. Also not so hard to understand why the statement is completely absent from all the Inquest records...likely too fortuitous to the club to be accepted whole cloth.

3 people, 3...stated that they were by Louis and the dying woman at 12:45. Find me any other case within this study that has 3 witnesses corroberating events and times like that. Yet you prefer the Inquest absentee Israel. Someone no-one else sees or hears, like the charaters in his story. As long as you understand that three men, 1 not affiliated with the club in any way, gave that time and that scenario, believe what you wil..l at your own risk to the search for the truth. Liz wasnt seen on the street after Smith left, (unless you believe the Club savior of course, Israel), and Fanny Mortimer did not see Louis arrive between 12:50 and 1am. He says he arrived "precisely" at 1, Fannys account makes him either a liar or confused.

I set down a timeline based on witness accounts here once, just to remind people who said what, and it was abundantly clear that the times given were way off by some witnesses. Yet 2 witnesses from inside the club, one of which had only returned to the club at 12:30, agreed on a time and event in that passageway. A third outsider corroberated them. So....they likely told the truth, and the others....oddly enough the entire management staff at the club, did not. If Liz was in the passageway dying at 12:45, then Lave, Eagle, Israel and Louis lied. Lave...a club cottage resident, Eagle, a club speaker paid to be at the meetings, Israel..a friend of the radical Socialist editor for the paper printed onsite, and club member, and Louis, the club steward.

Hmm...seems like a pattern there, and evidence that the Self Preservation motive could be very viable. Much more than a Ripper who doesnt rip or even show interest in cutting into someone he kills...the very foundation of the reason he was called "Ripper" in the first place.

As to your comments about Israel...is it unreasonable to assume that at 12:45 an immigrant Jew man outside a Socialist Club just after a large meeting possibly attended that meeting? Its said he lived on Berner before his wife moved that day...is it possible he lived in one of the cottages, no-one has ever found out where he lived on that street. Is it so hard for you to accept that a Immigrant Jew would lie to protect another immigrant Jew, considering as has been mentioned, the anti semtical attitudes rife in that area at the time? And the clubs reputation for harbouring Anarchists. Anderson claimed a Jew didnt tell the truth when faced with identifying a Jewish suspect, he wouldnt squeal on a fellow Jew. If it was true, its likely for the same reason Israel lied, they had to protect each other or be lynch mobbed.

Try taking your head out of the sand for a change.

[c.d.]

Abby Normal why do you think a "conspiracy" is so far-fetched? Conspiracies do happen. Every single day. You can't lump this in with chemtrails or 9/11.

You know what the climate was like at the time. Antisemitism was rife, many quarters suspected a Jew, and now a potential Ripper victim was found next to a club for jewish subversives. There had to be some kind of damage control to deflect any suspicion from the club and its members. They ABSOLUTELY had motive for cooking up a witness like Schwartz. He popped up very quickly, very conveniently, and the only word he happened to catch was an antisemitic slur from the attacker? Yeah, right.

Hello Harry,

You and I usually agree but I am going to disagree on this one. Just because the club had a motive doesn't NECESSARILY mean that they therefore were involved in a conspiracy. If this were the first murder in the area I might be more inclined to accept the conspiracy theory but it wasn't and I am not aware of people or establishments near the other murder sites becoming immediate suspects. To me, a much more reasonable course of action would have been for the club to cooperate completely with the investigation which it appears they did.

You say Schwartz popped up very quickly and conveniently but how does he differ from all the other witnesses in that respect? Is it so hard to accept that he was simply on his way home?

And as for the slur, if he had a pronounced Jewish appearance why would an antisemetic slur being thrown his way from an angry B.S. man be so out of the ordinary?

I suspect you and Michael had a few beers together.

c.d

[Wickerman]

.... Go somewhere that doesn't have a PC, and unless you know there is nobody patrolling that street, and you could wait a long time until you realize it's not being patrolled. It's efficient to "spot the PC and know the area is clear for the time you need". Knowing a particular street is not patrolled requires specific details of a specific street, knowing the general time of a beat, let's one generalize to where ever they are....

Hi Jeff.

I have to wonder though if there wasn't another aspect to the crimes that we tend to overlook.
There were abandoned houses in Mitre Square, in fact all over Whitechapel. There were passages that were not patrolled, or patrolled less frequent. and some locations where there were no streetlamps.
Why didn't he kill and leave bodies in places where no interruption was practically guaranteed?

Look at the display aspect, how Kelly was almost posed to greet the next person who came in the door?
Bucks Row was a public thoroughfare yet at the time he struck it was practically desolate. The back yard of Hanbury street can be expected to be busy, yet again he struck at a time that was quiet. Mitre Square is the same, he left Eddowes in a place where she will be found because it is a well frequented spot. There was a nightwatchman on duty in St. James Place, at the Fire Station, just seconds around the corner, and I suppose Dutfields Yard is another 'in your face' location, it just got too busy too soon for his liking?

On the one hand he needed a degree of seclusion, but it had to be in a place where the seclusion changes to public exposure in minutes, on the scale of 'shocking' the next person who comes through as soon as he leaves.

[Harry D]

Abby Normal why do you think a "conspiracy" is so far-fetched? Conspiracies do happen. Every single day. You can't lump this in with chemtrails or 9/11.

You know what the climate was like at the time. Antisemitism was rife, many quarters suspected a Jew, and now a potential Ripper victim was found next to a club for jewish subversives. There had to be some kind of damage control to deflect any suspicion from the club and its members. They ABSOLUTELY had motive for cooking up a witness like Schwartz. He popped up very quickly, very conveniently, and the only word he happened to catch was an antisemitic slur from the attacker? Yeah, right.

[Sam Flynn]

The point I was making Sam is that lots of witnesses mistook whom they saw for the respective victims.

We don't know that's true for all witenesses, besides the point I was making was that the chances of a "false positive" in Eddowes' case would be lower because of the poor weather conditions and the comparatively low population/pedestrian density in that part of town, compared to the heart of Spitalfields and St George's in the East, both of which were busier than the area around Church Passage.

[The Baron]

they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy.

Can you pleaae explain how they would watch the PC leaving without he seeing them?!

in Cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Mckenzie, there were no PC sightings of the victim with a company.

Was the police patrolling the streets or just walking them ?!


The Baron

[JeffHamm]

No thats why the suggestion that the killer and the victims knew these timing when there were other places to go is a non started. After all the police couldn't patrol every inch of Whitechapel

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

All they have to know is that beats tended to be 10-15 minutes, although some were longer. See the PC pass by, and you know you've now got 10-15 minutes. Go somewhere that doesn't have a PC, and unless you know there is nobody patrolling that street, and you could wait a long time until you realize it's not being patrolled. It's efficient to "spot the PC and know the area is clear for the time you need". Knowing a particular street is not patrolled requires specific details of a specific street, knowing the general time of a beat, let's one generalize to where ever they are. It also ensures the encounter can be ended relatively quickly. And, paradoxically, one might even think that knowing a PC was never very far away might have been something prostitutes were trying to ensure, rather than avoid.

But I take your point and do see where your objection comes from.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

Would a killer "case" an area before he planned to kill in it, assuming he was interested in how he might get away?

[Michael W Richards]

Those other sightings happened in far more populous parts of town. The area around Mitre Square wouldn't have been too busy at the best of times - it wasn't as if it had much going for it, from the POV of a casual pedestrian. After all, Lawende and co were only in the vicinity because their club was there.

Which is congruent with the fact that that Mitre Square and its environs was a comparatively quiet location.

The point I was making Sam is that lots of witnesses mistook whom they saw for the respective victims. One might argue that a few of them saw someone like Mary Kelly on the street the very morning she was lying in bed taken apart. The quiet isnt the issue I was making with Mitre either, the amount of time it would take is, IF Lawende did see Kate with someone at 1:35. If Watkins is correct with his timing, which I see no reason to doubt, and Lawende did see Kate, which can be doubted considering his own recollections less than 2 weeks later, then we have around 8 minutes in total to get to the spot, kill her, cut her open, remove body parts, cut a colon, cut her nose, cut and tear an apron, and leave without Watkins seeing him or hearing exiting boots on the cobblestones. Unlikely. But if possible, then there can be no interruption in the case of Stride, there were minutes unaccounted for after her throat cut.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

Accepted Joshua. I’d just say that we can’t be sure that Eddowes was around to see the last Constable leave MItre Square.

[Wickerman]

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

Exactly!

[c.d.]

Are we assuming that all PCs were equally vigilant in trying to catch prostitutes in the act?

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

No thats why the suggestion that the killer and the victims knew these timing when there were other places to go is a non started. After all the police couldn't patrol every inch of Whitechapel

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk