For what reason do we include Stride?

[Abby Normal]

Firstly, he didn't always need two cuts. Secondly, on the occasions when he did inflict two cuts, he went on to complete further mutilations and/or eviscerations - so, whatever his reason for inflciting the "preliminary" cut, it evidently wasn't because he was interrupted. Even if he did need two cuts (which he didn't) then Stride's putative interruption must have happened in the short interval between the infliction of the first and second cut; something which, again, I find rather unlikely - unless we are to believe that Jack would have waited umpteen seconds between each cut.

im afraid I don't know what your getting at sam. you seem to be contradicting yourself. if he didn't need two cuts, theres no in between. he merely got spooked and left after he cut her throat.

[Abby Normal]

Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters. In the midst of a series of throat cutting prostitute murders all occurring within a very tight radius we would be criminally remiss not to even consider this as a possible ripper murder. Of course we then have to notice the differences and evaluate whether there could have been a reason for them or whether it was categorically the work of a different killer. We cannot go as far as the latter but we can come up with plausible reasons for the former. So the reasonable position has to be that whilst we cannot be certain Stride might certainly have been a victim of the ripper. Weight is added to this proposition imo when we have the fact of Eddowes murder a short time later and a short distance away. This might show an unsatisfied killer, angry and frustrated at being disturbed, going off to find another victim.

HI HS
oh I have no doubt stride was a ripper victim. peaked cap man. seen by the witnesses of stride, seen by the witnesses of eddowes. seen in between by anon witness in church st.

[Sam Flynn]

Was the murderer who killed Stride quickly with only one cut of a knife is less expierenced and less-practiced than a murderer who needed two cuts?!

Firstly, he didn't always need two cuts. Secondly, on the occasions when he did inflict two cuts, he went on to complete further mutilations and/or eviscerations - so, whatever his reason for inflciting the "preliminary" cut, it evidently wasn't because he was interrupted. Even if he did need two cuts (which he didn't) then Stride's putative interruption must have happened in the short interval between the infliction of the first and second cut; something which, again, I find rather unlikely - unless we are to believe that Jack would have waited umpteen seconds between each cut.

[The Baron]

The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.

Was the murderer who killed Stride quickly with only one cut of a knife is less expierenced and less-practiced than a murderer who needed two cuts?!

This is not a good point Sam.


The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.

Yes, this is a good point Sam. He would have had to have been disturbed just at the stroke of the knife.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters.

The difficulty from my perspective is that he would have to have been "spooked" in the middle of his thrust of the knife. I find this very difficult to believe for a man like JTR, who was by now well-practised in quickly delivering deep and extensive wounds to a woman's throat.

[Herlock Sholmes]

totally agree. while possible diemshitz disturbed him-it would mean that the ripper was hiding somewhere in the square and only made his escape when diemshitz went in the club-I find it somewhat hard to accept.
In more probability he was spooked by something and bolted before diemshitz even arrived.
and with the commotion in the street and being seen by Schwartz, I think he may have bolted earlier and didn't even enter the yard.

Yes Abby, I can’t see why this is such a far fetched notion in some quarters. In the midst of a series of throat cutting prostitute murders all occurring within a very tight radius we would be criminally remiss not to even consider this as a possible ripper murder. Of course we then have to notice the differences and evaluate whether there could have been a reason for them or whether it was categorically the work of a different killer. We cannot go as far as the latter but we can come up with plausible reasons for the former. So the reasonable position has to be that whilst we cannot be certain Stride might certainly have been a victim of the ripper. Weight is added to this proposition imo when we have the fact of Eddowes murder a short time later and a short distance away. This might show an unsatisfied killer, angry and frustrated at being disturbed, going off to find another victim.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No, my comment was slightly tongue in cheek, as it seemed Michael was attributing it to you.

Sorry Joshua I misunderstood you.

[Abby Normal]

Exactly Darryl,

i mentioned in an an earlier post about the possibility of someone from the club opening the side door so that he could stand in the doorway to get some fresh air. The suggestion that the ripper couldn’t have been disturbed is simply wish-thinking I’m afraid.

totally agree. while possible diemshitz disturbed him-it would mean that the ripper was hiding somewhere in the square and only made his escape when diemshitz went in the club-I find it somewhat hard to accept.
In more probability he was spooked by something and bolted before diemshitz even arrived.
and with the commotion in the street and being seen by Schwartz, I think he may have bolted earlier and didn't even enter the yard.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Exactly C.D Who is to say it was Deimshutz who interrupted the killer? A noise from the club or street may have stopped him in his tracks. Then Deimshutz comes along while he is hiding in the shadows or already bolted we simply don't know, but considering the club and Berner St seem to have been busy that evening it is by no means beyond the realms of possibility.

Regarding the Yorkshire ripper I think it is important to remember that he attacked at least two women because he thought they where prostitutes even though they weren't

Exactly Darryl,

i mentioned in an an earlier post about the possibility of someone from the club opening the side door so that he could stand in the doorway to get some fresh air. The suggestion that the ripper couldn’t have been disturbed is simply wish-thinking I’m afraid.

[Joshua Rogan]

Hello Joshua,

Thanks but I’ve never believed that the interruption theory was a modern one.

No, my comment was slightly tongue in cheek, as it seemed Michael was attributing it to you.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Apologies to Herlock, but the possible interruption isn't a modern theory, but has been around since the moment the body was discovered. Diemschutz thought it, and it was the contemporary police and press opinion too. Even Michael's favourite witness Fanny Mortimer said "my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart."

This report from the Daily News 1 Oct is illlustrative, not just of the theory but also the possible timing;

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."

Hello Joshua,

Thanks but I’ve never believed that the interruption theory was a modern one.

[Joshua Rogan]

Apologies to Herlock, but the possible interruption isn't a modern theory, but has been around since the moment the body was discovered. Diemschutz thought it, and it was the contemporary police and press opinion too. Even Michael's favourite witness Fanny Mortimer said "my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart."

This report from the Daily News 1 Oct is illlustrative, not just of the theory but also the possible timing;

"A woman who lives two doors from the club has made an important statement. It appears that shortly before a quarter to one o'clock she heard the measured, heavy tramp of a policeman passing the house on his beat. Immediately afterwards she went to the street-door, with the intention of shooting the bolts, though she remained standing there for ten minutes before she did so. During the ten minutes she saw no one enter or leave the neighbouring yard, and she feels sure that had any one done so she could not have overlooked the fact. The quiet and deserted character of the street appears even to have struck her at the time. Locking the door, she prepared to retire to bed, in the front room on the ground floor, and it so happened that in about four minutes' time she heard the pony cart pass the house, and remarked upon the circumstance to her husband. Thus, presuming that the body did not lay in the yard when the policeman passed-and it could hardly, it is thought, have escaped his notice-and presuming also that the assassin and his victim did not enter the yard while the woman stood at the door, it follows that they must have entered it within a minute or two before the arrival of the pony trap. If this be a correct surmise, it is easy to understand that the criminal may have been interrupted at his work. The man who drove the cart says he thinks it quite possible that after he had entered the yard the assassin may have fled out of it, having lurked in the gloom until a favourable moment arrived."

[Darryl Kenyon]

"I hope you see by those facts why interruption is not only unwarranted theory, it is in contrast to the timing evidence of what could be done in that span."

Hello Michael,

Here is the problem. An interruption does not have to be physical as in being done by some other person. If Jack is caught and convicted he gets hanged. If we assume for the sake of argument that he does not want that to happen (which seems to be a reasonable assumption) it is therefore not unreasonable to assume that virtually anything could have spooked him. As for the timing evidence, you are assuming that he was alone with Stride that entire time. But what if he got spooked by something and ducked into the shadows to make sure everything was ok? His paranoia gets the better of him and he gives it up as a bad business. In that scenario, the timing argument falls apart.

A killer (or any criminal) getting spooked is commonplace. You seem to want to put it on a par with aliens landing and handing out Bible tracks. I think it was the Yorkshire Ripper who stated that he bolted on a couple of occasions for no reason other than his own paranoia.

You state that there is no evidence for this happening. But what evidence would there be? Do you think that he would write a note saying that he was about to mutilate Stride but got scared off before he could begin?

You are right that the interruption theory can't be proven but to me (and certainly others on these boards) it seems quite reasonable.

c.d.

Exactly C.D Who is to say it was Deimshutz who interrupted the killer? A noise from the club or street may have stopped him in his tracks. Then Deimshutz comes along while he is hiding in the shadows or already bolted we simply don't know, but considering the club and Berner St seem to have been busy that evening it is by no means beyond the realms of possibility.

Regarding the Yorkshire ripper I think it is important to remember that he attacked at least two women because he thought they where prostitutes even though they weren't

[JeffHamm]

Hi,

I want to present first the inquest testimony that describes the throat cutting injuries for Nichols, Chapman, Stride, and Eddowes. Then present a brief discussion on my readings of these.

Nichols:
Testimony of Mr. Henry Llewelly, surgeon, of 152, Whitechapel-road
“On the left side of the neck, about 1in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertegrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8in. in length.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 35).

Chapman:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
“He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply; that the incisions through the skin were jagged, and reached right round the neck.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 86).
“There were two distinct, clean cuts on the left side of the spine. They were parallel from each other and separated by about half an inch.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 87)

Stride:
Testimony of Mr. George Bagster Phillips, divisional surgeon of police, 2, Spital-square
“There was a clean-cut incision on the neck. It was 6in. in length and commenced 2½in. in a straight line below the angle of the jaw, ¾in. (note ½ in. is stated in Begg, Fido, and Skinner, 1996; Pg 351, but in all other respects the quote is identical) over an undivided muscle, and then becoming deeper, dividing the sheath. The cut was very clean and deviated a little downwards. The artery and other vessels contained in the sheath were all cut through. The cut through the tissues on the right side was more superficial, and tailed off to about 2in. below the right angle of the jaw. The deep vessels on that side were uninjured.” (Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 158).

Eddowes:
Testimony of Frederick Gordon Brown, 17 Finsbury Circus, Surgeon of City of London Police Force:
“The throat was cut across to the extent of about 6 or 7 inches. A superficial cut commenced about an inch and ½ below the lobe and about 2½ inches behind the left ear and extended across the throat to about 3 inches below the lobe of the right ear. The big muscle across the throat was divided through on the left side – the large vessels on the left side of the neck were severed – the larynx was severed below the vocal chords. All the deep structures were severed to the bone the knife marking intervertebral cartilages – the sheath of the vessels on the right side was just opened. The carotid artery hand a fine hole opening. The internal jugular vein was opened an inch and a half not divided. The blood vessels contained clot. ”(Evans and Skinner, 2000; pg 205/206)

Ok, that’s the testimony from the inquests that I have available to me.

Briefly, we have more details with regards to the wounds for Stride and Eddowes. Nichols has two cuts, one smaller (4 inches) than the other (encircled the neck). I would suggest the smaller was probably done first, and would direct the initial blood away from the killer on her right side. This is the important one for comparison between the cases.

With Chapman, there were fewer details, but the description reads to me like two circular cuts, rather than one smaller one and one that circles the entire neck. They are, however, located in similar locations as the two described on Nichols, and the presentation is minimal enough that we should be cautious about accepting my reading as an accurate description of both incisions. But if that is considered, then this is different from the 1 small 1 large wound to Nichols.

I’ll skip to Eddowes first:
The cut is described as 6-7 inches in length. There’s a superficial cut mentioned as well. It’s not entirely clear to me if this part of the description is providing details with regards to the 6-7 inch cut, or if this is a 2^nd cut. If it is details, then Eddowes only had her throat cut once, if it is a 2^nd, then this is unlike either Nichols or Chapman, as both cuts there were anything but superficial. The larger of the two, if there were two, did not damage the structures on the right side to any great extent (only a small hole in the right carotid artery is mentioned). This injury corresponds in many respects with the smaller, 4in. cut, performed on Nichols. If the superficial cut is a 2^nd injury, given the injuries also inflicted upon Eddowes’ eyelids, etc, this 2^nd injury may not have been inflicted until some other stage of the attack rather than at the point where JtR was cutting the throat to ensure death. I base that on its description of being superficial, but it possible that is a description of the beginnings of a a single injury to the throat, which eventually extends 6-7 inches.

Now, with regards to Stride. The injury to her throat is, within the levels of variation of the other throat injuries. It is, in many respects, a near re-telling of the slightly more severe injury inflicted upon Eddowes. Both are in the range of 6 inches, though Eddowes’s may be as long as 7. Nichols, however, had the smaller injury described as 4 inches. With both Stride and Eddowes the vessels on the right side are either uninjured (Stride) or only slightly so (Eddowes). A smaller initial throat cut, appears to be the initial attack JtR followed with both Nichols and Eddowes. The details for Chapman are insufficiently supplied to know for sure if this was followed, although it tends to read in a way that suggests it was not, and that both injuries were the deep encircling cuts. JtR, therefore, shows some variability. However, the commonalities between the overall mutilation pattern between Eddowes and Chapman in particular, link these two cases. The injuries to Nichols also links her to Chapman and Eddowes. The only wound inflicted upon Stride reads so much like that of Eddowes, that to discount Stride as a Ripper victim is unwarranted. There is enough evidence in that injury to warrant her consideration, particularly when combined with other aspects (similarly public locations, lack of noted disturbances, time of the attack, similar descriptions of people seen, victimology, and so forth). At the same time, the lack of the attack escalating into mutilations, the lack of a second throat injury, deep or superficial, and the possibility that the injury inflicted could be extremely common – it may be that most throat cuttings produce a description as per Stride and Eddowes. That is something I do not know. If this injury description is highly common, and it’s just what throat cutting tends to look like, then that similarity is of little value with regards to linkage. But if the similarity of description between Stride and Eddowes injury is far more similar than the description one would have when comparing two random throat cutting murders, then that would point towards a common hand. Noting the difference between Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes, all of whom are generally considered well linked, we see that the variability between wounds by what is considered the same hand, but on different nights, seems greater than that shown between two separate injuries committed on the same night.

So, I do think there is more than enough physical evidence available to warrant considering Stride a possible victim of JtR. It may not be enough to rule out the alternative, that she is not part of the series. But I think it is unsafe to suggest one or the other of those conclusions must be right.

That means, when we consider the possibility that she is a victim of JtR, an explanation for the lack of escalation seems required. The times given (elsewhere) for various sightings and discovery of her body, do not preclude Deimshutz arriving at a time that might have caused JtR to leave. It's not definitive, but it can't be ruled out. Also, BS was seen in a confrontation with Stride shortly before she was found murdered in that location. Descriptions of BS are similar to that of a man seen with Eddowes shortly after (again, consistent, but not definitive). That would suggest the pushing of Stride was the beginnings of a murderous assault, that JtR was not going to stop, but now knowing he had been spotted as well in a physical confrontation, may have been enough by itself to spook him. We can never know why he left for sure, nor does it matter, if the above physical evidence is deemed sufficient to warrant including Stride as a victim of JtR. If it is, then any plausible explanation for why JtR leaves that scene is good enough to fill in the gaps of the story even if we could tell it different ways and never know which, if any, were true. Why he left could be considered "irrelevant" if the above were sufficient to inform us that JtR was there, and for some reason, he left.

Anyway, that's just me.

- Jeff