For what reason do we include Stride?

[JeffHamm]

Hello Jeff,

Fair enough but the cachous were only penny candy. Would trying to hold on to them be worth a broken wrist if thrown down with force or take precedence over her very life if being dragged back into the yard?

c.d.

Well, given the description we have to work with by Schwartz, that he grabbed her a pull towards the street, then spinning her back towards the pavement (sidewalk), that all sounds like more or less one motion to me. She's holding something, and I could see the initial response to be grip it tighter, regardless of what it was. The fall isn't described, and it doesn't sound to me like a full prone type thing, but could just be falling to a knee, again, not something that would necessitate dropping anything. It's the final bit, swinging her around towards the pavement that makes me think she's now got BS between her and the street and she may have started to run down the alley (possibly because she knows there's a door there into the club, so a place she could escape to), and he grabs her scarf just inside the alley (now she's back on to him), which quickly ends up with her on the ground and her throat cut. That last bit, from scarf onwards, seems no more than what a new entrance to the scene would have to do anyway, so either the cachous remain through BS doing those things, or through a 2nd assailant doing much the same (the scarf needs to be grasped, she needs to go from upright to ground level, and through all that she needs to be grasping the cachous). This, in my reasoning, is why I don't see introducing a newcomer as overcoming the problem of the cachous.

The idea of a newcomer and Stride, entering the alley together willing, and then the newcomer blitz attacking (which, really, is what is described as BS doing) would have Stride and the newcomer facing each other. And that, I think, is more likely to lead to her dropping the cachous as she grabs back. If she's not facing him, as per above, I think opening her hands is less likely (or at least, it's more likely for her not to).

I think it's worth exploring all of these different ideas, and in some ways, we can narrow down to some extent the sort of things that work. But in the end, with so little to work with, it's probably not possible to narrow it down to the extent that we can be objectively sure one way or the other. The description of BS could be describing the same person as described by Lawende, but both descriptions are fairly generic for the time and so could also result if they saw different people. We don't have evidence of different people, and only the possibility of the same. That, again, while not definitive one way or the other, means there's nothing there to further suggest BS needs to be replaced with a newcomer.

These are, of course, all hypothetical descriptions and opinions and I'm sure there are hypothetical versions where a newcomer gets past the concerns I've raised. For example, as Stride leads the newcomer into the alley, getting out the cachous, he then grabs her scarf from behind, starting his attack without her facing him. But again, we're now describing the end sequence of what I've suggested as a possible continuation of the BS encounter. The difference, of course, is that if it's BS we don't need to add the complexity of a new person, who also suddenly attacks Stride, etc, and we've not improved the quality of fit with regards to the evidence we do have (as it's the same basic situation), and who also fits the generic descriptions of BS, and the man described by Lawende and company. (Accepting, of course, there are reasons to question each of these sources of evidence - I'm just reluctant to discard something if it generally fits in without much difficulty).

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I certainly agree that all of the locations were high risk with Hanbury Street being the riskiest. Someone opening that backdoor leaves the ripper trapped and with only three options. To push past the interloper and escape leaving a witness to identify him. To kill the witness. Or to try and scale the fence and escape via another backyard. Not great options. We can only suspect that Annie had convinced him that this was a safe spot (either that or the killer was completely unworried by risk.) I wonder if the ripper simply “bumped into” Catherine as she walked through Mitre Square or they ran into each other close by and Catherine suggested Mitre Square as a safe spot. After all, being caught in the act by a Constable was simply a risk of the job for her. The same couldn’t have been said for the ripper so he might simply have assumed that an experienced prostitute would know the areas with the least police presence which gave him a level of confidence that they were unlikely to be disturbed. Also, with the square having three exits, he had two options for escape should he hear someone approach from one of the exits.

That's much my view as well. I think JtR probably met Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes near, by not right at, the location of their murder and after a short negotiation were taken there by the victim themselves (as you indicate). So, while he could have just bumped into Eddowes walking through Mitre Square, I generally suspect he met her nearby, they may have been waiting at the end of Church Passage because Eddowes knew the PC would pass by the far end, and that would give them sufficient time once he passed through. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, so they would have seen him go past, giving them the full 12-14 minutes. And if she reassured him of that information, he now knows how much time he has.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

That's much my view as well. I think JtR probably met Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes near, by not right at, the location of their murder and after a short negotiation were taken there by the victim themselves (as you indicate). So, while he could have just bumped into Eddowes walking through Mitre Square, I generally suspect he met her nearby, they may have been waiting at the end of Church Passage because Eddowes knew the PC would pass by the far end, and that would give them sufficient time once he passed through. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, so they would have seen him go past, giving them the full 12-14 minutes. And if she reassured him of that information, he now knows how much time he has.

- Jeff

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

[JeffHamm]

At that time of the morning there would have been other countless dark back alleys, yards and doorways available to be used for illicit purposes. So why would anyone specifically want to use a location which was regularly patrolled by policemen every 14 mins or less if you add Pc Harvey to the timings, on the basis of knowing the times the police came into the square. It makes no logical sense.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

I'm assuming these on the street encounters were not prolonged romantic interludes and were completed in the space of 5 minutes or so and didn't involve dancing and dinner, so if you knew the area was free for more than twice that, it makes perfect sense.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

Exactly Sam,

Id say that there was almost no chance. If a prostitute only ever solicited within say half a dozen streets then it would have been reasonable to suggest that she’d have gotten to know the beats but they couldn’t have known or remembered too many.

Unless there was a LVP prostitute version of ‘The Knowledge.”

[Joshua Rogan]

Exactly Sam,

Id say that there was almost no chance. If a prostitute only ever solicited within say half a dozen streets then it would have been reasonable to suggest that she’d have gotten to know the beats but they couldn’t have known or remembered too many.

Unless there was a LVP prostitute version of ‘The Knowledge.”

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

[Trevor Marriott]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

No thats why the suggestion that the killer and the victims knew these timing when there were other places to go is a non started. After all the police couldn't patrol every inch of Whitechapel

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

Are we assuming that all PCs were equally vigilant in trying to catch prostitutes in the act?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

Exactly!

[Herlock Sholmes]

There's no need for anyone to memorise any beats. All they have to know is that police beats all took about the same time to patrol. Then they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy. Just keep an ear cocked for the sound of his (or anyone else's) approaching footsteps to know time is up.

Accepted Joshua. I’d just say that we can’t be sure that Eddowes was around to see the last Constable leave MItre Square.

[Michael W Richards]

Those other sightings happened in far more populous parts of town. The area around Mitre Square wouldn't have been too busy at the best of times - it wasn't as if it had much going for it, from the POV of a casual pedestrian. After all, Lawende and co were only in the vicinity because their club was there.

Which is congruent with the fact that that Mitre Square and its environs was a comparatively quiet location.

The point I was making Sam is that lots of witnesses mistook whom they saw for the respective victims. One might argue that a few of them saw someone like Mary Kelly on the street the very morning she was lying in bed taken apart. The quiet isnt the issue I was making with Mitre either, the amount of time it would take is, IF Lawende did see Kate with someone at 1:35. If Watkins is correct with his timing, which I see no reason to doubt, and Lawende did see Kate, which can be doubted considering his own recollections less than 2 weeks later, then we have around 8 minutes in total to get to the spot, kill her, cut her open, remove body parts, cut a colon, cut her nose, cut and tear an apron, and leave without Watkins seeing him or hearing exiting boots on the cobblestones. Unlikely. But if possible, then there can be no interruption in the case of Stride, there were minutes unaccounted for after her throat cut.

[Michael W Richards]

Would it make logical sense for a resident of Met Police territory to have known about early morning City police beats? Would they necessarily have known all the beat timings in the Metropolitan "H" or "J" Divisions, for that matter?

Would a killer "case" an area before he planned to kill in it, assuming he was interested in how he might get away?

[JeffHamm]

No thats why the suggestion that the killer and the victims knew these timing when there were other places to go is a non started. After all the police couldn't patrol every inch of Whitechapel

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

All they have to know is that beats tended to be 10-15 minutes, although some were longer. See the PC pass by, and you know you've now got 10-15 minutes. Go somewhere that doesn't have a PC, and unless you know there is nobody patrolling that street, and you could wait a long time until you realize it's not being patrolled. It's efficient to "spot the PC and know the area is clear for the time you need". Knowing a particular street is not patrolled requires specific details of a specific street, knowing the general time of a beat, let's one generalize to where ever they are. It also ensures the encounter can be ended relatively quickly. And, paradoxically, one might even think that knowing a PC was never very far away might have been something prostitutes were trying to ensure, rather than avoid.

But I take your point and do see where your objection comes from.

- Jeff

[The Baron]

they just have to watch the PC leave and hey presto! Fifteen minutes of privacy.

Can you pleaae explain how they would watch the PC leaving without he seeing them?!

in Cases of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Mckenzie, there were no PC sightings of the victim with a company.

Was the police patrolling the streets or just walking them ?!


The Baron