Where is Liz Stride?

[DRoy]

Ben


I agree with almost everything you said. The only problems being that you accept Schwartz and therefore believe that BS Man existed. I'm not sold on Schwartz or his story.

If he did exist and it happened as Schwartz said, I would tend to agree that BS Man is her killer regardless of whether he is the notorious 'Jack' or not.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote. Very few people are so astonishingly unlucky as to be attacked in the same location by two separate men within minutes of each other, and it's even less probable that Stride should have continued to hover around at the first attack's location. The only explanation I can think of for the resistance of such an obvious conclusion is that the actions and behaviour of BS doesn't doesn't gel, in some people's minds, with their mental perception of Jack the Ripper.

If that's really what people think, then it makes far better sense for them to argue against Stride being a ripper victim than to argue that it must have been Jack and that he must have snuck in after BS left. Even this is unnecessary, since serial killers are not robotic and have occasional lapses in judgment and approach, and this holds true for the more "organized" offenders too. Perhaps the ripper had drunk too much on this occasion? Or perhaps he was taken aback by Stride's non-compliance. But to argue that BS wasn't Jack because he didn't behave like him makes little sense, in light of what we know about other serial killers. And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Its always nice to debate civilly I think, and the above fits that description,... I heartily agree that if the Schwartz story is to be believed it is likely BSM that is her killer, even with his overt technique, it could still have been this Ripper fellow,...but that line of thought inevitably leads to a brick wall when we can see that she is not ripped, nor pre-ripped, nor touched again after a single cut...as far as the physical evidence reads anyway. If Fanny Mortimer is correct in how she describes the time from 12:50 until 1am, then there is a distinct possibility that Liz is either with her killer, being killed, or lying there dying while her killer leaves the immediate area...but not through the gates.

If she is already with her killer at 12:50, then that means Louis is 10 minutes away. So, likely no interruption. If she is struggling with her killer, that means she is cut closer to the later estimate given by Dr Blackwell, of approx 12:56am. Still the issue of interruptus evidence. And the escape of her killer. If she is already bleeding out....then where can her killer go unseen but into the club via the side door? The only scenario of those 3 that leaves room for the suggestion he was interrupted is the 2nd, but again, we are missing any evidence of any further intention.

And perhaps Ive been lax in addressing this recurring point, but Lawendes Man and BSM are not dressed alike.....they are dressed similarly, but seriously I doubt many people here would suggest that the man changes his clothing between murders.

All the best Ben

[Ben]

I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote. Very few people are so astonishingly unlucky as to be attacked in the same location by two separate men within minutes of each other, and it's even less probable that Stride should have continued to hover around at the first attack's location. The only explanation I can think of for the resistance of such an obvious conclusion is that the actions and behaviour of BS doesn't doesn't gel, in some people's minds, with their mental perception of Jack the Ripper.

If that's really what people think, then it makes far better sense for them to argue against Stride being a ripper victim than to argue that it must have been Jack and that he must have snuck in after BS left. Even this is unnecessary, since serial killers are not robotic and have occasional lapses in judgment and approach, and this holds true for the more "organized" offenders too. Perhaps the ripper had drunk too much on this occasion? Or perhaps he was taken aback by Stride's non-compliance. But to argue that BS wasn't Jack because he didn't behave like him makes little sense, in light of what we know about other serial killers. And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

All the best,
Ben

[DRoy]

Michael,

I wonder if Fanny could tell where the sound came from? If a cart and horse were to pass by her place, would she know whether it was coming or going?

I just posted in the other Liz thread about 'time'.

Yes I believe she'd know whether the cart was coming or going. Obviously the sound of one approaching would get louder as it approached. Plus, Mortimer lived there for years, it wouldn't have been the first time she ever heard Diemchutz arrive with his pony and cart.

Cheers
DRoy

[The Good Michael]

What I'm learning from this thread is that it's possible none of the victims were prostitutes and that they were just women on dates or going grocery shopping, or in the case of Kelly, just a gal having a guy over for a pail of tea.

Hmmm..no it's not that they WEREN'T prostitutes, it's just that on their last nights on Earth, they may not have been. I say this because if we can assert that Stride wasn't out soliciting, we can do the same for all the others, and fair enough.

The odds of all of the women (who were undoubtedly prostitutes for much of the time), NOT soliciting on their last nights on Earth must be pretty high for so many people to see what I obviously cannot. Good job people. Eyes of a hawk.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Mortimer said she heard the cart and pony arrive but suggests it was just after 1:00. She heard it but had already gone inside at that point.

Cheers
DRoy

She did say that she heard the cart and pony shortly after 1am DRoy....my point being Louis insisted that he arrived at the gates at 1am.

From the Inquest :"I reside at No. 40 Berner-street, and am steward of the International Workmen's Club. I am married, and my wife lives at the club too, and assists in the management. On Saturday I left home about half-past eleven in the morning, and returned exactly at one o'clock on Sunday morning." Fannys statements make it clear she was at the door from 12:50 until 1. She didnt see anyone coming down the road.

I wonder if Fanny could tell where the sound came from? If a cart and horse were to pass by her place, would she know whether it was coming or going?

Cheers

[DRoy]

Jon Guy,

Again, why is it you doubt Schwartz ?

I've said it thoughout many posts why I doubt it. Why is it you believe in Schwartz? What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened? It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it. James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it. Nothing does support it.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

If Louis Diemshitz insistence on 1am means he was approaching from the direction of Commercial for a few minutes...unless some Ripper fan wants to suggest he had a thoroughbred lashed out front...then it follows based on Fanny Mortimers statements that she should have been able to see and/or hear the cart and horse approaching. She was at that door, by her own account, at that time. She didnt. Apparently the young couple who was interviewed had no corroborating evidence to provide, perhaps other than seeing Fanny.

Mortimer said she heard the cart and pony arrive but suggests it was just after 1:00. She heard it but had already gone inside at that point.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Caz,

May I turn the question round and ask you why must Stride not have been in the market to earn a few pence in whatever way the buyer at that hour requested? She was completely without funds when found dead. Why must this be interpreted to mean she already had her bed and breakfast sorted (feather pillows, scrambled eggs and smoked salmon, no doubt) courtesy of the new beau who so discourteously left her standing outside the club to become just 'another' murdered woman?

Elizabeth Tanner claims she paid Liz 6d earlier that day. She had money. Apparently she also paid Tanner for a bed the same night meaning she had a place to sleep already plus had 2d for $hits and giggles. She could have been soliciting but it appears she didn't have to.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

I wonder why some are so critical of people who argue any angle of the Stride murder evidence yet so at ease with their own unsupported and unsubstantiated arguments that inevitably must include this Phantom Killer Jack.

There are many fallacies being bandied about...one concerns the likelihood that Liz was soliciting when she met her killer. Thats pure speculation and it is used in an effort to bolster a theory that she is killed by a "prostitute killer". Another is that a witness missing from the formal Inquest..who provided a story for the time of 12:45 in front of the gates...is a reliable source, discounting the additional 12:45 witness who does appear at the Inquest and says nothing about anything going on just round the corner on Berner Street, nor does he see any fleeing man, or men. Edward Spooner and his date dont see anyone fleeing from Berner either. Fanny Mortimer neither sees or hears anything either, and for all we know 12:45 may well have been one of her "on" moments.

If Louis Diemshitz insistence on 1am means he was approaching from the direction of Commercial for a few minutes...unless some Ripper fan wants to suggest he had a thoroughbred lashed out front...then it follows based on Fanny Mortimers statements that she should have been able to see and/or hear the cart and horse approaching. She was at that door, by her own account, at that time. She didnt. Apparently the young couple who was interviewed had no corroborating evidence to provide, perhaps other than seeing Fanny.

There seems to be lately some suggestion that I, and others, are being too rigid with the timings, and should just accept a possibility that things simply evolved like well tuned clock that last half hour, with figures entering and departing at just the right moments to be unseen by others who were in fact there at the time.

No argument needed other than that statement itself....and Im accused of stretching the boundaries.

Cheers all

[Jon Guy]

Oh, it's the ole follow and believe blindly thing. Right okay, sorry, carry on...

Nothing blind about it, mate.

Again, why is it you doubt Schwartz ?

[DRoy]

Jon Guy

Oh, it`s the ole conspiracy thing. Right okay, sorry, carry on ..

Oh, it's the ole follow and believe blindly thing. Right okay, sorry, carry on...

[DRoy]

DVV,

because she was a prostitute in Berner Street (see the thread "Selling matches and soliciting"). (Of course, you can argue that there is no evidence she was selling matches.)

By the way, even those who don't make her a ripper-victim can assume she was soliciting that night.

Assume because she was a Ripper victim? Not every woman was an unfortunate and not every Ripper victim is necessarily a prostitute. She was at least doing house cleaning.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

c.d.

I have to agree with Lynn. There is no evidence at all that Liz was prostituting herself. She may have been but there is nothing but speculation to say she was.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Caz,

Scwartz didn't attend the inquest. If you believe him to be such an important witness then why didn't he testify? You have to answer that. Please don't say in order to protect the witness somehow and please don't use the seaside home. If he had something of value, he should have testified. Period. He didn't though so why not?

The same rule could be applied to Mortimer. The problem with her not testifying? What could she actually say other than to discredit Schwartz. She didn't see anything or hear anything. She wouldn't make a good witness at an inquest for that reason. However, her value comes in the form of discrediting Schwartz, hence he didn't testify.

Regarding BS Man, half believe he had to be Liz's killer and the other half say it wasn't him. Some of the biggest names (at least in my opinion some of the biggest names in Ripperology) feel it wasn't BS Man. If it wasn't BS Man then Schwartz's tale doesn't have much value at all other than he apparently would have been the last person to see Liz alive. Since he didn't come forward, we'll never be able to identify him even as a witness.

Cheers
DRoy