Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

nothing more

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Schwartz's story seems to make much more sense when seen in the light of the BS man just being an obnoxious drunk who hassled a prostitute and then went on his way. Nothing more."

If his story is true, no doubt this is how it happened--although I'd say "supposed prostitute."

Actually, I'm about 60-40 against. If, however, I come to accept this story, then just a passing drunk who gave a lady a hard time, lost his temper, and killed her in a fit of pique.

"'Ere now. Move along. Nothing to see."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

fruit defense

Hello Ben, CD.

"I can see it now -- "stand back. I have cachous and I am prepared to use them." "

Right. Fresh fruit is MUCH better. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alternate

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"But why is questioning Schwartz's honesty the only option?"

It's not the only option. Schwartz could be telling the truth. And BS man killed Liz. He was a Gentile bully, possibly drunk, and who hurled a racial slur at a Jew. he also murdered a woman with his knife.

I can live with this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

story

Hello CD. Thanks.


"Oh, please. Do we really need to go there again?"

That's how I feel on EVERY Stride thread.

"I am simply putting forth reasons why that is more likely the case than not in my opinion. Isn't that what the whole Liz argument is about or did I miss something?"

If not for the BS story, I think one could almost plausibly hold that Liz was killed by some "Jack" character.

But with BS, and then needing to calm down, and now enter another character. Not to say an interruption. Sorry, I cannot, away with.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

One last time and then I have to go. Are you questioning Schawartz's story per se or his story as the basis for the BS man being Liz's killer? As I said to Ben, Schwartz's story seems to make much more sense when seen in the light of the BS man just being an obnoxious drunk who hassled a prostitute and then went on his way. Nothing more.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Ben,

"The presence of the cachous in her hand indicates preparedness for an attack."

I can see it now -- "stand back. I have cachous and I am prepared to use them."

You provided reasonable explanations. But there are a lot of explanations that have to be provided. That's the problem. To me, a much simpler and to my mind much more probable explantation, is that the BS man was simply a drunk who hassled her and then went on his way leaving the door open for Jack.

But then again this is deja vu all over again. We disagree. So be it.

Stay well, Ben.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

I agree, Lynn. But why is questioning Schwartz's honesty the only option? I think he relayed what he thought he saw but since he did not speak English and his story comes to us through an interpreter, I think it has to be taken with a grain (and maybe a large grain) of salt.

c.d.

[c.d.]

[QUOTE=lynn cates;259964]Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"So let's see. We have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night."

Known by whom?

Oh, please. Do we really need to go there again?

"It seems pretty damn reasonable to me that Jack might assume that she was soliciting."

Now you are assuming "Jack" killed her. Look, I've no trouble with assumptions nor yet bias. But why not admit it?

Lynn,

I am not assuming that Jack killed her. I don't know who killed her. I am simply putting forth reasons why that is more likely the case than not in my opinion. Isn't that what the whole Liz argument is about or did I miss something? And quite frankly, if I am biased in favor of Jack, you are equally biased that it was not Jack. It can work both ways.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

alternate approach

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Except that it was a pretty piss poor attack in the annals of attacks and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man."

Yes indeed-- if true. But anger may not always be abated--even though its manifestation is inconvenient.

"And of course the cachous and the fact that Liz doesn't seem to be too afraid at this point hence the nature of her screams. And the fact that no one heard any argument after Schwartz left. And Liz's clothes don't seem to have been ripped which you would expect if she were pulled or dragged. Other than those things, yeah it had to be the BS man."

CD, I'll answer carefully so you don't think I'm sarcastic.

As a matter of fact, I tend to agree with you on most of these points. But FAR from pointing a finger at a later "ripper" attack which was interrupted, I am inclined, instead, to question Schwartz's story. If Schwartz is telling the truth, why no signs of struggle, cachous in hand, and no corroboration of the story?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Tom

Hello Colin. Thanks. (Almost missed you. So sorry.)

"Who is the man if Schwartz is not telling the truth?"

Umm, see Tom Wescott. He has a lovely rogues gallery.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

second assumption

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"So let's see. We have a known prostitute standing by herself late at night."

Known by whom?

"It seems pretty damn reasonable to me that Jack might assume that she was soliciting."

Now you are assuming "Jack" killed her. Look, I've no trouble with assumptions nor yet bias. But why not admit it?

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Exactly, Lynn, and by extension if Jack killed Stride, then BS was Jack.

Hi CD,

If that's your take on it, it would be more convincing to argue that Schwartz made the whole thing up as opposed to envisaging a mystery second attacker scenario.

There is nothing about either the cachous or her screams to argue against BS as the killer. The presence of the cachous in her hand indicates preparedness for an attack, with is consistent with the altercation witnessed by Schwartz and not remotely consistent with Stride being taken by surprise (because she'd drop the cachous out of blind instinct in the latter scenario). Stride may not have had a particularly loud scream, or she may have been preoccupied with being pushed over and/or fending off her attacker. The fact that no argument was heard after Schwartz left can be explained by BS whipping out a knife and threatening to use it if she made any more noise. It doesn't necessarily follow that her clothes would have been ripped had BS pulled her about.

...and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man

Preferable to letting Stride go after getting such a close look at him, especially if he was the ripper.

Hi Mike,

Just on your last point about the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions, the only difference is that Lawende paid more attention to the man's clothes and less attention to his face, whereas it seemed to be the other way round in Schwartz's case. Also, a peaked cap would have stood out more conspicuously as "sailor like" in the City of London, as opposed to nearer the docks, where Stride was killed.

All the best,
Ben

[lynn cates]

examples

Hello CD. Thanks.

"Seriously, the sarcasm is getting out of hand."

Actually, I sometimes cast about for examples of the logical fallacies for my classes. But these are all clear enough.

Sorry you feel it sarcastic.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

filter

Hello Roy.

""Once you get past calling it a conspiracy, you'll see he makes some very valuable arguments and valid points especially about the witnesses."

But the idea is, articulate the "c" word and everyone hisses and boos and the argument falls on deaf ears. It's like daytime telly, if you hear something to make you think, just say "hatred" and you'll be drowned out.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Ben.

"I always find it incredibly strange that anyone should feel the need to conjure up the existence of a second man arriving on the scene after broad-shoulders (supposedly) left. We have eyewitness evidence of an attack being perpetrated on the victim around the time she was believed to have been murdered. Unless Schwarz was lying, the likelihood that "BS" man was Stride's killer is so overwhelmingly and irrefutably large that any other possibility is extremely remote."

This post is worthy of framing. IF Schwartz is telling the truth, BS is the man.

Cheers.
LC

Except that it was a pretty piss poor attack in the annals of attacks and that he (the BS man) went on to kill her after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. And of course the cachous and the fact that Liz doesn't seem to be too afaid at this point hence the nature of her screams. And the fact that no one heard any argument after Schwartz left. And Liz's clothes don't seem to have been ripped which you would expect if she were pulled or dragged. Other than those things, yeah it had to be the BS man.

c.d.