Where is Liz Stride?

[Bridewell]

However, she heard loud steps and could hear the commotion when Liz was found so why wouldn't she hear Liz scream even if it wasn't that loudly?

I just wonder how good the interpreter was who translated Schwartz's story. Perhaps the woman appeared (visually) to scream but no sound emerged? Translations - even good ones - lose accuracy.

[caz]

Precisely my point, Jon, thanks. 'Just minutes before' make all the difference in the world. If nobody was actually there to see anything at the magic 12.45, nobody would know there was nobody there to prove Schwartz a liar.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Possibly because two club members had been there just minutes before.

Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Although there are similarities between BS and Marshall's man, they do not carry over to Church passage man. Looking at the full description, given to the police--but not at inquest, the coat is not right nor or the trousers.

BS Man and CP Man were both still wearing a short jacket and trousers.

The differences are minimal and can be explained by the difference between the two witnesses, Lawende and Schwartz, and also the differing situations that these witnesses were in when they were ermmm .. witnessing.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Michael

The "off and on" quote to me has more credibility, its more likely she popped in and out during that 20 minutes.

Absolutely, Mike!! If she had been at her door for the whole time between 12.30 and 1am she would have seen the owner of the footsteps that she assumed were of a policeman.

Israel Schwartz claims he came upon Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45am.....yet neither witness from the club who were at the gates at some point between 12:30(Lave), and 12:40 (Lave/Eagle), saw anyone. No Israel, no BSM, and no Liz. The street was as one witness put it, "deserted".

Yes, so who was observing the street at 12.45, when Schwartz and co. were there?

Fanny, from 12:50 until 1am, sees only the young couple. No Louis and Cart approaching, or arriving, since Louis claims he arrived at 1.

.. and that fits too. Diemschitz got the time off the clock at the top of the road, it was 1am. Mortimer had just shut her door.

Edward Spooner approximates what time he was at the Beehive with his lady friend by virtue of his time leaving the pub and a casual 20 minute walk to arrive at that location.

Spooners approximation of the time was the loosest of the lot. He ven admitted he fixed the time by the closing time of the Beehive.

He says, at the Inquest and to the press, that he saw the men calling for help and went with them to the gates at around 12:40-12:45. Everyone seems to believe he was mistaken about his time. But 3 club members, including Isaac Kozebrodski, stated to the police within 1 hour of the murder that they heard about the woman on the ground approx 10 minutes after the half hour, so....approx 12:40ish. Issac also said he went to search for help alone just after that, and Louis claims that he went with Issac[s] around 1:05am.

Luckily, as one of the Doctors carried a watch we know all the hoo-ha didn`t happen half an hour earlier than thought.

As for witnesses seeing peaked caps, Marshall saw Liz to early to be of any use,

Eh? What do you mean too early to be of any use.

and Lawende described someone dressed much differently than the Berner "suspect" described by Schwartz.

No he didn`t. He was the same age, height, wearing a peaked cap and a jacket?

And as I point out in the thread, no-one sees Liz after that other than Israel...

Yes, ten minutes elapsed between the Smith and Schwartz sightings, and then another 10/15 mins between the Schwartz and Diemschitz sighting.
Stride was probably lying in the dark by the wall for ten minutes.
Hardly, the Bermuda Triangle

Liz Stride seems to go somewhere just after PC Smith leaves, and according to club witnesses, that isnt into the passageway or yard.
So...where is Liz Stride?

How about one of the little alley`s or passageways running off Berner Street such as Batty Gardens, or 15 yards around the corner into the other street, or
waiting for the coast to be clear so she could nip into the rear of the yard.
Have a look at a detailed map of Berner St as it my help getting to the bottom of ...where Liz Stride is!!

[lynn cates]

members

Hello Caroline.

"If he wasn't even there, how on earth could he have been sure that nobody else was?"

Possibly because two club members had been there just minutes before.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

description

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Although there are similarities between BS and Marshall's man, they do not carry over to Church passage man. Looking at the full description, given to the police--but not at inquest, the coat is not right nor or the trousers.

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

It stands to reason, if Schwartz was saying it how he saw it, that at approximately 12.45am there were just the four people on Berner St in a position to have seen one another: himself, Stride, BS man and Pipeman. With one of them dead and two being potential suspects, and nobody else around at that time, it's hardly surprising that we only have Schwartz's word for what happened and who he saw.

That doesn't mean we can conclude that he was lying about any of the details, let alone making the whole thing up. If he wasn't even there, how on earth could he have been sure that nobody else was, who could rubbish everything he had claimed about the incident?

We know there were at least two people there unseen by anyone at the time of the murder - Stride and her killer.

I suspect you'd have to have an agenda to want to lift Schwartz right out of the equation. Not a good move IMHO.

Love,

Caz
X

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

.

"who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap?"

Umm, well, Mrs. Long's "foreign looking" man wore a deerstalker. Also, the early reports of "Leather Apron" sometimes had him in a deerstalker. Unless seen in profile or from behind, the deerstalker looks like a peaked cap--which it is.

Precisely. We only have the twins Marshall`s Man and BS Man, and Church Passage Man in peak caps....wait a minute!!

[DRoy]

To all,

You have ro wonder, would Lave or Eagle see Mortimer? She is the people watcher, not them. They have a place to go, Mortimer doesn't. She's checking out the scenery like she probably always does. There are people watchers out there and when you're sitting stagnant while everyone else moves around, chances are you see what they don't. Supposition again but think about it.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

I know you're trying to figure out where Liz is but I think the first mistake is accepting random press reports as legit. For the 500th time, when someone releases a statement to the press... What does that mean? In Mortimer's case, i'd assume for it to mean it was her chance to tell her story which would be the earliest account and truthful account and the less influenced account. Anyone else think different?

As much as it is interesting what witnesses may have to share about Liz prior to her 'unfortunate' death, it doesn't really help us if Schwartz is to believed. This is where I understand Michael's supposition where he takes Schwartz out. Right or wrong, for his theories, does it make sense in the "grand" theme of things?

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

To answer a couple of questions posed....it appears that its possible Wolff Wess did the translations for Israel Schwartz, as he did for Leon Goldstein on the Tuesday following. That point is interesting when you consider, as I said, that its possible Wess and Schwartz were acquainted a few years before this incident. Someone is investigating that link as we speak I believe.

Witnesses gave statements to press and the police on the morning of the murder, and they were interviewed after the fact by additional press people. Small variances in story lines isnt a huge problem, but as has been pointed out, Fanny Mortimer does say that she was at her door from 12:30 until 1am,.. but she also is quoted as saying she was at her door "off and on" until she spent the last 10 minutes of that hour at her door continuously. The "off and on" quote to me has more credibility, its more likely she popped in and out during that 20 minutes.

Israel Schwartz claims he came upon Liz and BSM in front of the gates at 12:45am.....yet neither witness from the club who were at the gates at some point between 12:30(Lave), and 12:40 (Lave/Eagle), saw anyone. No Israel, no BSM, and no Liz. The street was as one witness put it, "deserted". Fanny, from 12:50 until 1am, sees only the young couple. No Louis and Cart approaching, or arriving, since Louis claims he arrived at 1. Edward Spooner approximates what time he was at the Beehive with his lady friend by virtue of his time leaving the pub and a casual 20 minute walk to arrive at that location.

He says, at the Inquest and to the press, that he saw the men calling for help and went with them to the gates at around 12:40-12:45. Everyone seems to believe he was mistaken about his time. But 3 club members, including Isaac Kozebrodski, stated to the police within 1 hour of the murder that they heard about the woman on the ground approx 10 minutes after the half hour, so....approx 12:40ish. Issac also said he went to search for help alone just after that, and Louis claims that he went with Issac[s] around 1:05am.

As for witnesses seeing peaked caps, Marshall saw Liz to early to be of any use, and Lawende described someone dressed much differently than the Berner "suspect" described by Schwartz. PC Smith is reliable, but again, he saw Liz at least 10 minutes before she is accosted and killed. And as I point out in the thread, no-one sees Liz after that other than Israel...the witness with the most important sighting if accurate, and the only witness that we speak of in this murder case that is not an Inquest Witness. His story is not validated...it is uncorroborated...and absent from the formal proceedings.

Brown saw the young couple almost certainly...the woman had no flower or maidenfern on her. Fanny saw the young couple. Thats validation.

Liz Stride seems to go somewhere just after PC Smith leaves, and according to club witnesses, that isnt into the passageway or yard.

So...where is Liz Stride?

Cheers

[lynn cates]

in peak condition

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"who else popped up in the Ripper saga wearing a peaked cap?"

Umm, well, Mrs. Long's "foreign looking" man wore a deerstalker. Also, the early reports of "Leather Apron" sometimes had him in a deerstalker. Unless seen in profile or from behind, the deerstalker looks like a peaked cap--which it is.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

DRoy: I saw it with my own eyes Jon, Lynn stole your hat. Who you going to believe, me or the security guard?

Schwartz

(sorry, couldn't resist)
; )

Now that's funny!!!

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

I keep hearing about that nothing corroberates Scwartz story-I would respectfully disagree.
He described a man with a peaked cap as did:

PC Smith
Marshall
Lawende

C,mon folks
Four witnesses describe a man seen with the victim(s) with the same hat.
It not only corrobarates IS's story but each others.

My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

Abby,

Marshall apparently saw Liz with someone wearing a peaked cap more than an hour before she was killed. Smith saw Liz's gentleman with a deerstalker hat. Lawende? So the only person wearing a peaked cap was the ripper within a 3 hour period? Seriously?

Cheers
DRoy