Where is Liz Stride?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello again,

I dont think we need to beat this point to death,... but when the Club has been referred to as a place for Immigrant Jews to gather as members, the same immigrant Jew members who are then referred to by the authorities as "anarchists", and the same immigrant Jewish men who were referred to as "low men" by the neighbors, and when the clubs meeting that night is entitled "Why Jews should be Socialists",... categorizing the club as being populated primarily by immigrant Jews is indeed valid. The Club doesnt have to be called a Jewish Mens Club for it to be one effectively, and the direct relationship many of the local immigrant Jews had with movements like Socialism would have isolated them from many of the national locals anyway.

Like it or not folks....Judaism is a big part of this evenings events....1st murder on the property of a club primarily populated by Immigrant Jews, a possible witness to an attack on that victim by a Jewish man passing by...a 2nd murder within an hour with 3 Jewish witnesses, having just left a Jewish club, passing what at least 1 of them thinks was the soon to be victim and a sailor type male,.... ...and finally a message and a piece of crime scene evidence left at the entrance to Model Homes almost exclusively tenanted by Immigrant Jews.... and a reference to Jews in the chalk message.

There is no way to eliminate the "overtones" here....primarily, the Clubs members were Immigrant Jews, many were German,Polish and Russian,.. and the club was set up to attract Jews to its meetings by virtue of that nights meeting agenda..."Why Jews should be Socialists".

Cheers all

[curious4]

One last time

Hello Mike,

Just one more time and as simply as I can explain. A fishing club, where people meet to fish and discuss fishing is still a fishing club even if the members are 95% eskimos. A club where people meet to discuss socialism is still a socialist club whatever the makeup is of the members. Forget religion, forget ethnicity, if the aim of a club is to discuss and propagate socialism, it is a socialist club.

Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

No, sadly I don't think you do.

Absolutely I do. You are being sensitive about an issue that isn't an issue to me. I understand that.

Mike

[curious4]

No, sadly I don't think you do.

[The Good Michael]

We all have our blind spots.

Not in this case. I completely see where you're coming from.

Mike

[curious4]

Blind spots

Mike,

We all have our blind spots.

Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

Sorry to disagree, but it was referred to at the time, and by the locals as "the socialist club" not "the jewish club", William Morris and Annie Besant both spoke there, and the membership was not exclusively jewish (I refer you to my previous post with Paul Begg's quote). The club from which Lavende and co were leaving was, I believe, a jewish men's club.

you are right of course. Just because it was predominately occupied by Jewish immigrants, and produced materials in the common Yiddish language, doesn't mean it was an ethnic club. I'm sure tons of local Irish men, as an example, used to hang out there and read the editorials of the Arbeter Fraynd. I challenge you to name some members who weren't Jewish, save for Rudolf Rocker who was a visitor and contributor who came along later. Again, you are discomfited by your inability to separate religion from ethnicity in this case, I believe. If that's your take, you are correct. I consider the club a place where people of similar language, status (immigrant), age, education, and social disposition came together to be with like-minded people.

Mike

[curious4]

The club

Hello Mike,

Sorry to disagree, but it was referred to at the time, and by the locals as "the socialist club" not "the jewish club", William Morris and Annie Besant both spoke there, and the membership was not exclusively jewish (I refer you to my previous post with Paul Begg's quote). The club from which Lavende and co were leaving was, I believe, a jewish men's club.

I believe that the club opened its doors to a printing press after all other printers had been bullied into refusing to print the newspaper.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

Calling the Berner Street club a jewish club is like a red rag to a bull to me, because it wasn't, and I think it is important when posting to be accurate.

Gwyneth,

I was being accurate. The flagship newspaper printed there was in Yiddish, the founders were immigrant Jews and the club seems to have been a haven for socialist Jews as they were the immigrants pouring into the country at the time. I always separate the religion and the ethnicity. They were bonded together for several reasons: socialism, youth, education, and ethnicity.

Mike

[curious4]

The club

It's about the ethnicity and not the religion of course since we are talking about atheists for the most part, and the fact that the publications printed on premises were in Yiddish. If you want to read religion into it, that's not what anyone here is talking about, just to clarify.

Mike

Hello Mike,

Sorry about the delay in answering.

Calling the Berner Street club a jewish club is like a red rag to a bull to me, because it wasn't, and I think it is important when posting to be accurate.

As regards being jewish I would regard anyone who embraced judaism as a jew. A religion like any other. However, I understand that many people think differently and whether or not the jews are an ethnic group is a moot point (and one which would take a good deal of mooting!).

I think, bearing in mind how the jewish community regarded the club, the question in this thread is more whether Schwarz was a commited socialist and would have wanted to protect the club's reputation for that reason. As it already had quite a reputation, and given that the murder was commited on its premises, I think that would have been like shutting the stable door after the horse was out, to coin a phrase, and very unlikely.

Best wishes,
Gwyneth

[The Good Michael]

Indeed. Girls as sharp as her are somethin' rare.

Sharp? And a pun to boot. If that don't beat all.

Mike

[lynn cates]

'Erman's 'Ermits

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Indeed. Girls as sharp as her are somethin' rare.

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Oh, very well--four, if you count Mrs. Brown. That, I believe, was yet ANOTHER independent event?

Thing about Mrs. Brown...Mrs. Brown had a lovely daughter

Mike

[lynn cates]

independent events

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Oh, very well--four, if you count Mrs. Brown. That, I believe, was yet ANOTHER independent event?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

"In the rough and violent East end two events separated by 15 minutes might belong to quite separate incidents."

Ah, so if they are separated by, oh, say, 45 minutes . . . ? (heh-heh)

Wait...that would be 3 incidents, not including the altercation in the privy that no one talks about.

Mike