Where is Liz Stride?

[lynn cates]

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Hello (again) CD.

The problem is that you already assume Liz is soliciting and killed by "Jack."

Q: "Why must we assume Liz is soliciting?"

A: "Because she was killed by "Jack" and he killed prostitutes."

Q: "How do we know she was killed by "Jack"?"

A: "Who else would kill a woman for prostituting?"

These feed on each other.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

believable

Hello Cd. Thanks.

So sorry. But if it could be kept quasi-believable . . .

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Just throwing this out here so no need to jump on me. (and don't make a smart remark about throwing the idea out).

What if the BS man and Liz hooked up and he (how to put this delicately) didn't feel like he got his money's worth if you get my drift. Could he have gone off, thought about it for a minute or so and then came back to get his money? If he threatened Liz to give him his money would it be a huge leap to say give me everything you have?

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"As to where Liz was, I think somebody earlier mentioned that maybe she was back in the yard servicing the BS man."

Oh, please.

"I am thinking oral sex here since there was no evidence of connection."

Perhaps you are thinking "oral sex" to save an untenable theory?

"He precedes Liz out of the yard who is delayed trying to freshen up. He then turns back. . ."

Considering how far Schwartz tailed him, surely a delayed reaction?

". . . and asks Liz to come with him for a drink. She refuses."

After all that time, supposedly in pubs that night, now she refuses? Very well. But where were they to drink? Weren't the pubs all closed?

"Drunk and angered. . ."

You forgot the malaise after his interlude with Liz.

". . . he tries to pull her with him. Enter Schwartz."

And the lads who were in the yard at 12.40 respectfully averted their gaze? OK, just as you wish.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Getting a wee bit sarcastic of late are we not?

c.d.

[lynn cates]

5 minutes

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Ah, so they weren`t there at the crucial time."

Indeed. But, if Schwartz were lying and were called out on time, he could "regret" the error and backdate by 5 minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Slightly adrift from this (but only very slightly) wasn't there a thread somewhere, where the two apparently conflicting Schwartz statements (the Police one and the Newspaper one) were compared, and it was established that the Hungarian words for "Pipe" and "Dagger" could sound very similar to a non-native translator? I vaguely recall it, but now can't find it...

Would this not give a little more consistency, and therefore credibility, to the Schwartz account?

All the best

Dave

[c.d.]

Lynn,

When I said he was only on the stage for only a short time I was referring to Schwartz not Jack.

Michael,

I know you want the time to be set in stone but it just aint so. There was plenty of time for Jack to do his thing. And as for the BS man being Liz's killer there are numerous red flags with that scenario which have been discussed ad nauseum.


c.d.

[DRoy]

Semper,

Speaking for myself, I always thought of Mrs Mortimer as the neighborhood gossip or busybody. I could see her fibbing or been mistaken on the length of time she was out there. I can't speak for anybody else but that's the way I always saw her.

Based on what? She could have made up any story she wanted to. For example she could have said she saw a man try to pull Liz in to the street while a man leaning up against the wall was smoking a pipe! (I'm joking of course!!) Actually, Mortimer is quite obviously the opposite. She said she saw nothing out of the ordinary nor did she hear anything suspicious.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

Observer,

My contention is that Liz Stride did not emit a very loud noise at all whislt being assaulted, not loud enough in fact for Mortimer to hear it inside her house.

As you state, that is your contention. I on the other hand believe Mortimer would have been keen with her hearing since she seemed to identify many other sounds. If she was in her house when she heard footsteps, how could she not hear Liz?

I also gave some possibles reasons why she did not shout out loudly whilst being attacked.

Possible reasons sure. But unless she was whispering her screams, Mortimer would have heard it. As I mentioned, she lived in that house at least seven years. She would know and identify what the common sounds were. I would assume someone screaming three times would not be a normal occurance.

The problem with Mortimer (and this problem has been debated many times) is that she stated that she stood at her door for most of the period between 12:30 and 1:00 a.m. she stated she saw only one individual, Goldstien. Had she actually been at the door for the length of time she stated she would have saw Schwartz et al. It's plain she is not a reliable witness.

But why accept Schwartz or the existing report as being accurate?

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Why would Schwartz still be important if BS Man didn't kill Liz?

Cheers
DRoy

[Semper_Eadem]

Just my 2cent worth.

Speaking for myself, I always thought of Mrs Mortimer as the neighborhood gossip or busybody. I could see her fibbing or been mistaken on the length of time she was out there. I can't speak for anybody else but that's the way I always saw her.

However, we really don't know that much about Mrs Mortimer's character. Perhaps she was a people watcher and stepped out of her house for a bit of fresh air and got to watching the scenery and forgot about the time. People back then did not wear watches or cell phones like we do now to gage time. She might of had a clock near by in her house but if she felt that not that much time had passed she might indeed have been out there awhile and heard quite a lot of the goings on that night.

[Observer]

If Liz Stride was indeed soliciting at the time of her death, and for some reason an individual took exception to her propositioning him, and decided to ill use her, then Stride would have been fully aware that there was a distinct possibility that a copper on the beat would intervene, PC Smith had already passed her on one occasion. Hence the stifled cry. Reason for irate potential punter? Small business man losing trade as a result of Jack the Rippers antics? Far fetched? Not as far fetched as memebers of the IWEC covering up for one of their number commiting the crime.

[Semper_Eadem]

To all,

You have ro wonder, would Lave or Eagle see Mortimer? She is the people watcher, not them. They have a place to go, Mortimer doesn't. She's checking out the scenery like she probably always does. There are people watchers out there and when you're sitting stagnant while everyone else moves around, chances are you see what they don't. Supposition again but think about it.

Cheers
DRoy

I could see that. I used to be a people watcher when I was a little kid in the summer time, just sit on the front step and see who went by.

[Observer]

Observer,

Mortimer didn't testify and neither did Schwartz. It seems you have no problem accepting his story(?). I've already said it, if Schwartz was believed by the police which it seems he was, and he claims to have witnessed something when Mortimer witnessed nothing, that is why people appreciate him and not her.

Instead of repeating myself, please reread my last post where I talk about Mortimer's hearing.

Does anyone see Schwartz? Nope. BS Man? Nope. Pipeman? Nope. The only person that can vouch for Schwartz's story is Schwartz himself.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy

I believe I addressed your query regarding Mortimer's hearing in my last post, but in the event I was not very clear here it is again.

My contention is that Liz Stride did not emit a very loud noise at all whislt being assaulted, not loud enough in fact for Mortimer to hear it inside her house.

I also gave some possibles reasons why she did not shout out loudly whilst being attacked.

The problem with Mortimer (and this problem has been debated many times) is that she stated that she stood at her door for most of the period between 12:30 and 1:00 a.m. she stated she saw only one individual, Goldstien. Had she actually been at the door for the length of time she stated she would have saw Schwartz et al. It's plain she is not a reliable witness.

Schwartz is a different kettle of fish, if he actually saw what he stated he saw then he's a very important witness indeed. And you know his story has a ring of truth to it, particulary the Lipski incident. As has been pointed out it's hard to reconcile the cachous held in Liz Stride's hand with the attack as witnessed by Schwartz, but it's not a problem if BS man was not Stride's killer. I don't believe he was, and for any one who states there was not enough time for another assailant to enter the scene after BS mans aassault I have only one word, piffle.

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

I just wonder how good the interpreter was who translated Schwartz's story. Perhaps the woman appeared (visually) to scream but no sound emerged? Translations - even good ones - lose accuracy.

Indeed, Colin. Three not very loud screams seems to be a literal translation.

[Jon Guy]

Sorry for sticking me big nose in there, Caz. I thought you may have gone away for a day or two and I was on a roll ..

As you will know it would have only took 2 or 3 mins to walk down Berner St to the junction... if we`re boiling it down to minute by minute timings.