Where is Liz Stride?

[DRoy]

Observer,

By including James Brown's statement to discredit Schwartz I presume you are taking into account the fact that both Schwartz and Brown both claimed to sight Liz Stride at 12:45 a.m. Would I be correct in assuming this to be the case?

Yes that was my point. Is Schwartz believed over Brown because his story is more exciting?

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it DRoy. You concede that it's unwise to accept exact timings where witnesses are concerned, and then you ask us to believe that Brown disctredits Schwartz's because they sighted Stride at exactly the same time, namely 12:45 a.m. You even concede that Schwartz running from the scene might well have been mistaken regarding the time. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Observer, we both have chosen to pick witnesses to believe and picked ones to discredit. It isn't about having cake and eating it too. No matter which way you look at it, every person believing in Schwartz is discounting Brown and Mortimer while also ignoring Schwartz didn't testify at the inquest.

Cheers
DRoy

[DRoy]

If as Schwartz implied she cried out "not very loudly", then it's entirely possible that she failed to hear Stride. Especially so if she were in the process of performing some kind of task. Also you are of the opinion that Mr's M heard Diemschutz cart wheels, I've looked at several press reports and this was not mentioned. I'm not saying is was not reported, but I'd be obliged if you could supply me with the article?

Observer,

Of course its possible she didn't hear it but is it likely she didn't? As said, she obviously had good hearing since she could intentify other sounds including footsteps. Footsteps would be much more quiet than three screams even if they weren't that loud.

I don'y enjoy repeating myself but. As has been pointed out it's not possible to scream, not very loudly, which is what Schwartz stated. It's more than likely that this part of his account was lost in translation, and what he actualy intended to convey was that Stide cried out but not very loudly.

So you concede things could have been lost in translation but only when its convenient to your argument?

Why do you not accept Schwartz's account? I'll tell you why, because Mortimer did not see him, nor did she hear Liz Stride cry out. It's been proven that Mortimer's account is faulty, it is perfectly conceivable that at 12:45 a.m. she was indoors, and failed to hear Liz Stride call out.

Maybe Mortimer didn't see Schwartz because he wasn't there hence she didn't hear Liz because it didn't happen. Its been proven Mortimer's account is faulty? Who proved that?

Because he was the last man to see Liz Stride alive, and he provides a reference point regarding the TOD.

He was the last person who claimed to have seen her alive.

Cheers
DRoy

[GregBaron]

Seed of Chucky...

Thanks for that. You are absolutely right. For all we know, she might have been there thinking Thomas Hardy was to autograph her copy of "Far from the Madding Crowd."

I think it more likely Lynn that Stride was waiting for Dimshits to autograph her copy of The Communist Manifesto...

Slightly adrift from this (but only very slightly) wasn't there a thread somewhere, where the two apparently conflicting Schwartz statements (the Police one and the Newspaper one) were compared, and it was established that the Hungarian words for "Pipe" and "Dagger" could sound very similar to a non-native translator? I vaguely recall it, but now can't find it...

This is good stuff. If a pipe is a dagger then Dagger Man may have slipped in and offed Stride......And of course Tom Westcott will tell you this is none other than Chucky LeGrand....


Greg

[lynn cates]

Mortimer

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Not necessarily, if a man like Goldstein can walk through the crime scene only noticed by Mortimer, how sure are we another male couldn't have appeared on the scene while Mortimer was otherwise occupied?"

Umm, I don't put much weight on her testimony. Did she see Smith and Liz and the lad?

"We do not have a complete picture of events that night, we are limiting ourselves to solving the puzzle with only half the pieces."

Much worse. Not only are there missing pieces, but others that simply don't belong.

"To be honest, me neither."

Now, you're talking!

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

I've said it thoughout many posts why I doubt it. Why is it you believe in Schwartz? What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened? It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it. James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it. Nothing does support it.

Hi DRoy

By including James Brown's statement to discredit Schwartz I presume you are taking into account the fact that both Schwartz and Brown both claimed to sight Liz Stride at 12:45 a.m. Would I be correct in assuming this to be the case?

You also wrote

As has been admitted a million times over in a bunch of different threads and posts, time is most likely wrong when people give it. Even a clock at the end of the road (Diemchutz) isn't necessarily correct. So lets give or take a few minutes for every witness. Mortimer could have gone outside at 12:35 instead of 12:30. Since Smith said he saw Liz at 12:35, it could very well have been 12:34 with Mortimer coming out of her house one minute later.

I don't know about you but I don't check my watch every time something happens in my life so I could document the exact time it happened. Plus who says my watch wouldn't be off a couple minutes from the true time or the next person's watch?

You want me to accept Smith couldn't be wrong about the time, Mortimer was wrong but Schwartz in the middle of running from Pipeman checked his watch and his watch is exactly correct with the actual time? Come on Caz!

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it DRoy. You concede that it's unwise to accept exact timings where witnesses are concerned, and then you ask us to believe that Brown disctredits Schwartz's because they sighted Stride at exactly the same time, namely 12:45 a.m. You even concede that Schwartz running from the scene might well have been mistaken regarding the time. You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

Regards

Observer

[Jon Guy]

Hi Garry

For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

But isn`t that the thing with homicidal maniacs?
If Lawende had seen him a couple of minutes later ....

In that instance, the man appears to be aware of Lawende and co approaching yet BS Man lays into Stride without apparently been aware of Schwartz behind him.

Aren`t we are dealing with a nutter of the highest order?
Peter Sutcliffe was calmly settling down in front of the telly within half an hour of one of his murderous frenzies.

[Observer]

Observer,
As you state, that is your contention. I on the other hand believe Mortimer would have been keen with her hearing since she seemed to identify many other sounds. If she was in her house when she heard footsteps, how could she not hear Liz?

If as Schwartz implied she cried out "not very loudly", then it's entirely possible that she failed to hear Stride. Especially so if she were in the process of performing some kind of task. Also you are of the opinion that Mr's M heard Diemschutz cart wheels, I've looked at several press reports and this was not mentioned. I'm not saying is was not reported, but I'd be obliged if you could supply me with the article?

. But unless she was whispering her screams, I would assume someone screaming three times would not be a normal occurance.

I don'y enjoy repeating myself but. As has been pointed out it's not possible to scream, not very loudly, which is what Schwartz stated. It's more than likely that this part of his account was lost in translation, and what he actualy intended to convey was that Stide cried out but not very loudly.

But why accept Schwartz or the existing report as being accurate?

Why do you not accept Schwartz's account? I'll tell you why, because Mortimer did not see him, nor did she hear Liz Stride cry out. It's been proven that Mortimer's account is faulty, it is perfectly conceivable that at 12:45 a.m. she was indoors, and failed to hear Liz Stride call out.

Why would Schwartz still be important if BS Man didn't kill Liz?

Because he was the last man to see Liz Stride alive, and he provides a reference point regarding the TOD.

Regards

Obsever

[Jon Guy]

Hi DRoy

Why is it you believe in Schwartz?

Because it`s a police statement held in the Whitechapel Murders files.

What corroborating evidence is there that what he said actually happened?

I've said it thoughout many posts why I have no reason to doubt it.

It doesn't appear that the medical evidence supports it.

I`ve not heard this one before. Can you please explain?

James Brown's inquest testimony doesn't support it.

He saw the other couple who were hanging around on the corner of Fairclough St and Berner St by the Chandlers shop.

[Wickerman]

Hello Garry.

As I'm sure you are aware, Ben, since eyewitness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, any superficial similarities between Broad Shoulders and Church Passage Man have to be viewed with a great deal of caution.

The first published description of the Mitre Sq. man (2nd Oct.) may have come from Harris.

"of shabby appearance, about 30 years of age and 5ft. 9in. in height, of fair complexion, having a small fair moustache, and wearing a red neckerchief and a cap with a peak".

A little taller than the man Schwartz saw, and no mention of him looking like a sailor in this report, that apparently came later.

For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

A point I have tried to raise many times. But, it is just as likely in my view that the couple Lawende saw were not Eddowes & the killer at all.

.

[Garry Wroe]

Thanks, Ben. Agree entirely.

[Ben]

Good to hear from you again, Garry!

I certainly take your point that the behaviour of BS was quite different to that of Lawende's man. Unusually for me, I'm very much on the fence when it comes to Stride's inclusion, or otherwise, in the ripper's tally. I feel very strongly, though, that the pro-Jack group lose serious points when they argue for another man (Jack) arriving on the scene after BS supposedly departed.

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

And as Abby points out, the similarity between BS and Lawende's man in sufficient to infer that they may have been the same person.

As I'm sure you are aware, Ben, since eyewitness descriptions are notoriously unreliable, any superficial similarities between Broad Shoulders and Church Passage Man have to be viewed with a great deal of caution. For me it is the behavioural characteristics of these two men which are the most telling. Whereas one appeared to have been under the influence, was aggressive, abusive and clearly on a short fuse, the other was quiet, calm and patient. Forty-five minutes might have been sufficient for a killer to have travelled from Berner Street to Mitre Square, but it was inadequate for him to have both sobered up and undergone a personality metamorphosis.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Fair enough. So he is lurking in the shadows and brooding, awaiting an opportunity?

Not necessarily, if a man like Goldstein can walk through the crime scene only noticed by Mortimer, how sure are we another male couldn't have appeared on the scene while Mortimer was otherwise occupied?
We do not have a complete picture of events that night, we are limiting ourselves to solving the puzzle with only half the pieces

"In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened."

Yes. And I believe that, in the first 1/3 of that span, Liz was well and truly dead.

I'm more inclined towards the latter 1/3rd.

"Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am."

IF Lawende saw Kate. Not sure he did.

To be honest, me neither.

.

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"But quite possibly one that she had been with earlier that night, not a complete stranger."

Fair enough. So he is lurking in the shadows and brooding, awaiting an opportunity?

"I agree entirely that there is no evidence of a third-man that night, but we lack definitive evidence of so much across these murders."

Very well. And that's what I'm on about.

"In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened."

Yes. And I believe that, in the first 1/3 of that span, Liz was well and truly dead.

"Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am."

IF Lawende saw Kate. Not sure he did.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

But with BS, and then needing to calm down, and now enter another character. Not to say an interruption. Sorry, I cannot, away with.

But quite possibly one that she had been with earlier that night, not a complete stranger. I agree entirely that there is no evidence of a third-man that night, but we lack definitive evidence of so much across these murders.

In those 15? minutes following Schwartz taking off, a great deal could have happened.
Look what occured at Mitre Sq. between 1:35 and 1:45 am.

.