Where is Liz Stride?

[Wickerman]

-Fanny Mortimer, neighbor witness who stood a few doors down at her door from 12:50 until 1am looking at the street.

Ms Mortimer had many things to say about that half hour;

"[I]I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual.....

Michael.
Where do you get "12:50-1:00 am" from?

.

[Wickerman]

I would disagree with this. The club would have wanted to be done with the police as soon as possible being an anarchist organization.

From what we can see they were done, once the 28 or so members had been questioned, statements taken, the police were done.

Had there been any undue concern the members would never have spoke so openly to the press, which only invites more curiosity if anything.
No, they were not concerned, at least not sufficiently to create a false witness with an equally false story.

.

[The Good Michael]

The most obvious fault to my mind with this line of inquiry is the suggestion that the club needed to throw suspicion away from themselves.

I would disagree with this. The club would have wanted to be done with the police as soon as possible being an anarchist organization. There would have been a certain amount of paranoia for these young men. Any suspicions regarding Stride or anything, would have made things uncomfortable. Of course this is a separate issue from being afraid of having a member connected to the Ripper murders, and I don't for a minute believe they were concerned about that.

Cheers,
Mike

[DRoy]

Jon,

Touché. Can you please provide your opinion to what Michael has posted? How do the witness statements add up especially when considering Schwartz's statement and how Abberline and Swanson felt about it.

Thanks
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Hi Michael.

The most obvious fault to my mind with this line of inquiry is the suggestion that the club needed to throw suspicion away from themselves.
There is no indication whatsoever that this was necessary, neither is there any indication in the previous murders that anyone else was to blame but the killer himself.

In my opinion, the premise is a sham, invented to create a dramatic theory.

.

[DRoy]

Thanks Michael,

But as per the other Liz thread going, both Abberline and Swanson a month after the murder and inquest still believe Schwartz's story. How can that be?

I don't have a problem with removing Schwartz but I don't think there is enough to do so. I know your thoughts on the club after reading your comments on this and the other site so I understand where you're going with it. I just don't see yet why Schwartz was still considered a strong suspect so late and yet still did not testify.

So if we say the club and members were involved then we'd have to discount everyone except Smith who surely saw Liz and then Mortimer who saw absolutely nothing. However is she is to be believed then Schwartz is lying. Yet Mortimer can't be believed because she didn't see anything between Smith seeing Liz and Liz being found.

Help!

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

Good post!

What about Schwartz? I know he didn't testify but do accept him as a legitimate witness? He fits almost in the middle of your times.

Do you trust Mortimer's times? I don't. She missed BS Man. She must have went outside her house after BS Man and before Liz is found.

Good point about where Liz was after Smith and how Lave and Eagle missed her. But if Schwartz is to be believed then there is about 10 minutes where she wasn't around the yard. So isn't it probable she was still across the street where Smith saw her?

If Liz enters the passage or the yard after the BS incident then Mortimer wouldn't have seen Liz at all since she hadn't yet went outside.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy,

If you check your post above, the concerns you have are all related to how these witnesses fit in with Israel Schwartz's story. If Israel was actually a club attendee that night, which makes more sense than the story he provides,... and perhaps a member...being a local Immigrant Jew himself.....then the explanation as to why he does not appear in any transcript recordings during the Stride Inquest may be that his story was considered tainted if they discovered a connection between him and the club.

Someone apparently has discovered that Schwartz and William "Wolff" Wess were acquainted a few years before this event...if so, isnt it likely that Mr Theatrically dressed Schwartz might aid his pal by coming forward with a story that in essence, absolves the club and its attendees of any sort of guilt in the murder of Liz Stride. If Schwartz did see what he says he saw then BS man is almost certainly the killer. And he was from off premises. It also paints a gentile picture of the killer...something again in their favor. Its far too convenient for me.

If youre really interested in how the witnesses and timings line up then I suggest you remove the Schwartz incident completely, as at the Inquest, and see what comes up.

Eagle and Lave both are club affiliates, Wess is also, Diemshutz is as well. Check their statements after removing the scuffle in front of the gates at around 12:45 and what do you see? I see club members trying very hard to deflect suspicion from themselves.

All the best DRoy

[DRoy]

Michael,

Good post!

What about Schwartz? I know he didn't testify but do accept him as a legitimate witness? He fits almost in the middle of your times.

Do you trust Mortimer's times? I don't. She missed BS Man. She must have went outside her house after BS Man and before Liz is found.

Good point about where Liz was after Smith and how Lave and Eagle missed her. But if Schwartz is to be believed then there is about 10 minutes where she wasn't around the yard. So isn't it probable she was still across the street where Smith saw her?

If Liz enters the passage or the yard after the BS incident then Mortimer wouldn't have seen Liz at all since she hadn't yet went outside.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

There are 4 Inquest witnesses that made statements about what and whom they saw from various times starting at 12:30am, until 1am......There is 1 at 12:30am,.. 1 at 12:35am,... 2 at 12:40am, and a single witness, from approximately 12:50 until 1am. It is therefore a matter of record what transpired on the streets in front of the club... in 5 minute intervals from 12:30 until 12:40, and a 10 minute interval, from 12:50 until 1am.

-Joseph Lave, witness as to the state of the street and yard at 12:30 and 12:40am

Lave, a cottager in the passageway, stated he went out for air at the entrance to the passageway from "half past 12 until about 12:40..."So far as I could see I was out in the street about half an hour, and while I was out nobody came into the yard, nor did I see anybody moving about there in a way to excite my suspicions. "

-PC William Smith, witness to state of street near gates at 12:35am

PC Smith identified the following couple..."He described the man as being about 28 years of age, 5ft 7in tall, wearing a dark overcoat and trousers. He also wore a hard felt deerstalker hat and was described as 'respectable' looking. The man was also holding a newspaper parcel, about 18in in length and 6 or 8in wide. He also noticed that the woman had a flower in her jacket." It is possible that this witness saw Liz Stride last before her murder.

-Morris Eagle, club speaker and witness who claimed to enter passageway at 12:40am to enter club via the side door

Mr Eagle stated that he had returned to the club around 12:40 and finding the front door locked, he went round to the gates to enter through the kitchen door. He said he saw no-one near the gates, in the passage or on the street at that time.

-Fanny Mortimer, neighbor witness who stood a few doors down at her door from 12:50 until 1am looking at the street.

Ms Mortimer had many things to say about that half hour;

"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by. I went to see what was the matter, and was informed that another dreadful murder had been committed in the yard adjoining the club-house, and on going inside I saw the body of a woman lying huddled up just inside the yard with her throat cut from ear to ear."

....."I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him. It was almost incredible to me that the thing could have been done without the steward's wife hearing a noise, for she was sitting in the kitchen, from which a window opens four yards from the spot where the woman was found. The body was lying slightly on one side, with the legs a little drawn up as if in pain, the clothes being slightly disarranged, so that the legs were partly visible."

......."A young man and his sweetheart were standing at the corner of the street, about twenty yards away, before and after the time the woman must have been murdered, but they told me they did not hear a sound."

It would seem that if the above witnesses can be counted on having reported what they had seen accurately that we have 3 fixed points in time...at 12:30, 12:35, 12:40 and the 10 minute interval from 12:50 until 1am....where we are told the status of the street and in front of the gates.

Only 1 sighting has what appears to be our Liz Stride in it...PC Smiths, at 12:35am.

So...

1) Where is Liz at 12:30?
2) Where is Liz at 12:40?
3) Where is Liz at 12:50?

I believe its also important that Fanny Mortimers statement about the young couple includes her speaking with them after the fact. This young couple is almost certainly the couple Brown saw at 12:45am...since we know they were in the immediate area, and since Mr Brown did not see a flower or maidenfern on the breast of the young woman.

If Liz is somewhere else at 12:30, then suddenly out meeting someone on the street at 12:35, it follows that she was close by but out of sight at 12:30...even to someone standing in the passageway at 12:30am, (Lave). Yet, she is not to be seen 5 minutes later at 12:40, by someone walking the width of the club on the street, (Eagle) and by someone standing by the gates in the passage, (Lave).

We do have an unconfirmed story about someone seeing her at 12:45 in front of the gates, but at this point it is only a story and not evidence that has been entered at any Inquest or hearing. That means that its at least possible that Liz Stride was off the street from 12:40 until 1am, yet Fanny stated that no-one entered or left that passageway while she stood there. Other than seeing Leon Goldstein pass by the gates at approx 12:56, she saw only the young couple.

So...where does Liz Stride go that places her out of sight to Lave, Eagle and Mortimer,.... and if she is out of sight in other than the passageway, how does she get into the passageway after 12:50 from the street without Fanny seeing her?

If she isnt in the passage or the yard or the club....where is she when those witnesses see no-one?

Best regards