The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[drstrange169]

>>These were different times, we can't judge what they said a century ago by the standards we use today.<<

None of your examples mention a "young girl" which is what we were talking about, so you remain an adjective away from relevance.

I also noticed that in one of your examples, one reporter actually interviewed Kennedy, whilst the other was was simply reporting a news item, making mistakes understandable.

The gap between a forty year old woman and a "young" girl is still a crevasse your theory tumbles into I'm afraid.

[Michael W Richards]

Jon, my A-C is pretty simple in this case, and I don't see the rationale for letting 20 minutes difference in the statement times fall victim to some haphazard luck and inaccurate estimates. 20 minutes takes us from when Liz is last seen by anyone trustworthy, PC Smith, to almost when Louis says people were sent to get help. That's a huge gap and makes much of what is said by anyone unusable. Anyone excluding PC Smith, Spooner, Fanny Mortimer and James Brown. They are all informative. Smith..last known sighting, Spooner...first outside, non club witness onsite, Fanny...covering the immediate area, in particular the last 10 minutes to 1 by the gates, and James Brown, seeing what Fanny claimed was there...the young couple, she sans flower arrangement.

[Joshua Rogan]

Jon, my A-C is pretty simple in this case, and I don't see the rationale for letting 20 minutes difference in the statement times fall victim to some haphazard luck and inaccurate estimates. 20 minutes takes us from when Liz is last seen by anyone trustworthy, PC Smith, to almost when Louis says people were sent to get help. That's a huge gap and makes much of what is said by anyone unusable. Anyone excluding PC Smith, Spooner, Fanny Mortimer and James Brown. They are all informative. Smith..last known sighting, Spooner...first outside, non club witness onsite, Fanny...covering the immediate area, in particular the last 10 minutes to 1 by the gates, and James Brown, seeing what Fanny claimed was there...the young couple, she sans flower arrangement.

Michael,
What time do you think Edward Spooner arrived at the yard?

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,
What time do you think Edward Spooner arrived at the yard?

I think it was probably around 12:40-12:45 since you asked Josh, just like his estimates indicated. When Gillen and Heschburg and Kozebroski say they were in that passageway by the dying woman. All of them mentioned others already around the body at that time, I think Spooner was one of them.

I think Louis arrived just before then, after PC Smith had moved on, and that Lave, Eagle and Louis knew full well what they were doing with their stories...trying to eliminate the club or its staff from any perceived improprieties. eagle is the only one that hedges his bet..."I couldn't be sure" a body was there when he passed the spot...but how could he be unsure, we all know where she lay.

I may seem to suggest I know what happened at that spot that night, I don't feel I have all the answers to what did happen, but I do believe I know what didn't. No Ripper, no angelic club staffers as so many seem to believe, and Liz was meeting someone that night at that club.

[Wickerman]

>>These were different times, we can't judge what they said a century ago by the standards we use today.<<

None of your examples mention a "young girl" which is what we were talking about, so you remain an adjective away from relevance.

I also noticed that in one of your examples, one reporter actually interviewed Kennedy, whilst the other was was simply reporting a news item, making mistakes understandable.

The gap between a forty year old woman and a "young" girl is still a crevasse your theory tumbles into I'm afraid.

What is the difference between a "girl" and a "young girl"?
Or, a "woman" and a "young woman"?

[Wickerman]

Jon, my A-C is pretty simple in this case, and I don't see the rationale for letting 20 minutes difference in the statement times fall victim to some haphazard luck and inaccurate estimates. 20 minutes takes us from when Liz is last seen by anyone trustworthy, PC Smith, to almost when Louis says people were sent to get help. That's a huge gap and makes much of what is said by anyone unusable. Anyone excluding PC Smith, Spooner, Fanny Mortimer and James Brown. They are all informative. Smith..last known sighting, Spooner...first outside, non club witness onsite, Fanny...covering the immediate area, in particular the last 10 minutes to 1 by the gates, and James Brown, seeing what Fanny claimed was there...the young couple, she sans flower arrangement.

Michael.

Given as you seem to be a slave to the estimated times, how do you reconcile Kozebrodski being brought out of the club by Diemschutz roughly 20 minutes before Mortimer hears the cart enter the yard?
Yet, Morris Eagle passed through the yard at the very same time, 12:40, and saw no-one?
This all makes sense to you does it?

[Wickerman]

Jon,

It seems fairly clear to me that Issac K doesnt agree with what you stated he said.

Isaac Kozebrodski came out of the club, and he was 20 minutes out in his estimation of the time.
Isn't it also strange that Abraham Heshburg came out of the club and was also the same 20 minutes out in his estimation of the time?
Ever consider the club clock was wrong by.......20 minutes?

The time is well before what Louis says he arrived at, clearly Issac K says "I" when referring to his initial search...sent by Louis..who mentions nothing about this, and Eagle and Louis went different directions and Issac K says he returned with Eagle via the commercial rd route, not Louis. I can see that it doesn't trouble you when people don't mention other people that you presume were with them at the time, it does trouble me though.

It doesn't trouble me when a witness says "I", because it is not only correct, but quite common.
If I ask you what you did, I expect you to tell me what YOU did, not what anyone else did. This is how a coroner conducts his inquest, and why Diemschutz makes no mention of anyone with him.
Kozenbrodski answered the same way, it is the correct way to reply.

You even offer Spooner in support of your theory, yet he has to be one of the worst witnesses. He said himself that he left the pub at the top of Christian st. at closing time, on Saturday night that is midnight.
He stood on the corner of Christian & Fairclough sometime between 12:30 & 01:00, he couldn't be more precise. However, he does say he was standing talking for about 25 minutes when two Jews come running along Fairclough shouting "murder" and "police".
So, at the very least this had to be 12:55, but as we know from other more reliable sources the body was found about 1:00am, so the two Jews had to come running down Fairclough about 1:05 or thereabouts.

Lave and Eagle state by their times that they were at the gates at the very same time, yet neither sees the other.

Right, so this should be a clue to you that your reliance on Spooner, Koz. & Heshburg is defective. Something is wrong with their statements.

[Michael W Richards]

1. Isaac Kozebrodski came out of the club, and he was 20 minutes out in his estimation of the time.
Isn't it also strange that Abraham Heshburg came out of the club and was also the same 20 minutes out in his estimation of the time?
Ever consider the club clock was wrong by.......20 minutes?


2. It doesn't trouble me when a witness says "I", because it is not only correct, but quite common.
If I ask you what you did, I expect you to tell me what YOU did, not what anyone else did. This is how a coroner conducts his inquest, and why Diemschutz makes no mention of anyone with him.Kozenbrodski answered the same way, it is the correct way to reply.

3. You even offer Spooner in support of your theory, yet he has to be one of the worst witnesses. He said himself that he left the pub at the top of Christian st. at closing time, on Saturday night that is midnight. He stood on the corner of Christian & Fairclough sometime between 12:30 & 01:00, he couldn't be more precise. However, he does say he was standing talking for about 25 minutes when two Jews come running along Fairclough shouting "murder" and "police".
So, at the very least this had to be 12:55, but as we know from other more reliable sources the body was found about 1:00am, so the two Jews had to come running down Fairclough about 1:05 or thereabouts.


4.Right, so this should be a clue to you that your reliance on Spooner, Koz. & Heshburg is defective. Something is wrong with their statements.

ok Jon, I numbered the main points.

1. Im sort of astounded that when 3 of 4 witnesses give a time that matches but doesn't satisfy your own perceptions, you then just assume they used a source that was incorrect. Its equally possible that when 4 witnesses give times that match, despite the conflict that arises with a single witnesses timings, there times are the correct ones. Ive mentioned this before and for some reason it hasn't landed with some folks....4 witnesses corroborating each other vs 1 witness who has no corroboration...which do you choose? Seems very clear to me anyway.

2. If I was asked to recount something officially, I would certainly mention if I was in someone elses company at the time. He said "Louis sent me.."

3. Spooners time leaving the pub on Commercial, once additional time is then included for them walking to the spot outside the Beehive puts him in the passageway around 12:40-12:45, when apparently we have Issac K, Gillen, Heschburg, Louis, Eagle arriving, Lave just standing there at the gates seeing no-one, and Israel Schwartz says he was approaching the gates then sees the woman who is now lying dying inside the gates suddenly alive and on the street outside the gates being accosted by a surly drunk gentile, while a man smoking a pipe watches, and a man named James Brown sees what he thinks is Liz with someone by the board school. Fanny, very possibly at her door near that time, sees or hears no-one but the young couple, then at around 5 to 1 she sees someone else walk past the gates, look in, and keep going. That's when Louis says he first pulled in, something which Fannys statement about what happened on the street from 12:50 until 1, directly contradicts. And from this mess you choose Louis and Israel I believe, correct? Jon....

4. Again, ad infinitum, 4 witnesses who independently match each other in pertinent aspects should supersede only the uncorroborated word of a single witness, unless of course evidence suggests that the single witness had a more plausible and provable characterization of their facts. There is no such evidence here. In fact one of those 2 witness gives an explanation of what he says happened that is as believable as someone describing a lapel pin that they say they saw at a distance in near darkness.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael.

Given as you seem to be a slave to the estimated times, how do you reconcile Kozebrodski being brought out of the club by Diemschutz roughly 20 minutes before Mortimer hears the cart enter the yard?
Yet, Morris Eagle passed through the yard at the very same time, 12:40, and saw no-one?
This all makes sense to you does it?

Let me ask you a question in return Jon, where was that pony and cart when the police arrived? It wasnt stored it that yard, was it? Maybe she heard it leaving. You can review my reply to your other post to see what I make of Morris Eagle and his time and recollections. To be frank, I suspect Liz was there to meet him. Why else did he return to the club after seeing the lady home? Might be to play cards...although it was getting late. Maybe an after hours drink...collect his speaking pay...maybe he had another date with someone who was interested in spending the night with him rather than just be walked home by him. Lots of possibilities huh?

[Michael W Richards]

Obviously Im suggesting Jon that Louis, Eagle, Lave and Schwartz all gave false information. Since the first 3 are the only ones that could lose income/employment based on how this event is perceived officially, they all had reason to ensure this was seen as unrelated to any club member. Israel is like the deadbolt..additional security on those same lines. He introduces us to a surly gentile who assaults Liz not where she is found, but outside the gates, off the property.

[Wickerman]

ok Jon, I numbered the main points.

1. Im sort of astounded that when 3 of 4 witnesses give a time that matches but doesn't satisfy your own perceptions, you then just assume they used a source that was incorrect.

My own perceptions?
I wasn't aware there were any credible books on this case that didn't accept the body being found about 01:00am. It's part of the historical record, isn't it?
Suggesting the body was there about 12:40-45, is just an idea held by a minority.

Its equally possible that when 4 witnesses give times that match, despite the conflict that arises with a single witnesses timings, there times are the correct ones. Ive mentioned this before and for some reason it hasn't landed with some folks...

Being truthful, it hasn't landed with the majority, because it does not make sense Michael.

4 witnesses corroborating each other vs 1 witness who has no corroboration...which do you choose? Seems very clear to me anyway.

I'm not sure about your 4 witnesses. Kozebrodski?, Spooner?, but Eagle says the body was found about 1:00, and the yard was empty at 12:40, so he isn't one of your 4. Neither is Lave, Mortimer, nor Deimschutz, so who are the other two?
Even Eagle says Deimschutz went along Fairclough to Grove with another man.
Kozebrodski says he also went towards Grove, and Spooner said he met two Jews heading towards Grove st.
How doesn't that all seem clear, the two Jews are Deimschutz & Kozebrodski.

2. If I was asked to recount something officially, I would certainly mention if I was in someone else's company at the time. He said "Louis sent me.."

Yes, he says the idea was suggested by Louis (or someone else), that doesn't exclude Louis from accompanying him.

3. Spooners time leaving the pub on Commercial, once additional time is then included for them walking to the spot outside the Beehive puts him in the passageway around 12:40-12:45,....

How does that work?
He was standing outside the Beehive "sometime between 12:30 and 01:00" - he couldn't say what that time was (though 12:40 fits nicely).
But we know two Jews from the club came running down Fairclough towards Grove just minutes after the body was found, so approximately 1:05. Deduct 25 minutes (Spooner's estimate) from 1:05 and we have the approximate time Spooner was standing outside the Beehive - 12:40am.
No mystery here!

.......when apparently we have Issac K, Gillen, Heschburg, Louis, Eagle arriving, Lave just standing there at the gates seeing no-one, and Israel Schwartz says he was approaching the gates then sees the woman who is now lying dying inside the gates suddenly alive and on the street outside the gates being accosted by a surly drunk gentile, while a man smoking a pipe watches, and a man named James Brown sees what he thinks is Liz with someone by the board school. Fanny, very possibly at her door near that time, sees or hears no-one but the young couple, then at around 5 to 1 she sees someone else walk past the gates, look in, and keep going. That's when Louis says he first pulled in, something which Fannys statement about what happened on the street from 12:50 until 1, directly contradicts. And from this mess you choose Louis and Israel I believe, correct? Jon....

I have not mentioned Schwartz, I'm not sure about his story. I don't think we need it to sort this out. I do accept Deimschutz though.

[Scott Nelson]

Schwartz seems to be the odd man out. But Swanson was convinced by his account.

[Wickerman]

Let me ask you a question in return Jon, where was that pony and cart when the police arrived?

No-one said the horse and cart left the scene, are you saying it did?
Everyone was locked in the yard while the police investigated, and interviewed everyone, including Deimschutz. The cart went nowhere.

It wasnt stored it that yard, was it?

The cart was stored in a yard in Cable street, normally.

Maybe she heard it leaving.

By itself?
Deimschutz was locked in with everyone else.

You can review my reply to your other post to see what I make of Morris Eagle and his time and recollections. To be frank, I suspect Liz was there to meet him. Why else did he return to the club after seeing the lady home? Might be to play cards...although it was getting late. Maybe an after hours drink...collect his speaking pay...maybe he had another date with someone who was interested in spending the night with him rather than just be walked home by him. Lots of possibilities huh?

Thats a real tall order to fulfill, especially as Eagle does say he often stayed at the club till late.

[Wickerman]

Obviously Im suggesting Jon that Louis, Eagle, Lave and Schwartz all gave false information. Since the first 3 are the only ones that could lose income/employment based on how this event is perceived officially, they all had reason to ensure this was seen as unrelated to any club member. Israel is like the deadbolt..additional security on those same lines. He introduces us to a surly gentile who assaults Liz not where she is found, but outside the gates, off the property.

This is tantamount to admitting defeat.
Typically, when a theorist here on Casebook is faced with a witness story that contradicts their theory, they accuse the witness of lying. They can't fight it so they try to discredit it.
You have named four witnesses who's story you cannot fit into your paradigm, so they must have lied. You can't be wrong (right?), so out they go.

You are now required to orchestrate an entire drama to justify the argument you choose to make. Nothing by way of actual evidence exists to substantiate this. It's all make believe.

The solution is far simpler by accepting some witnesses had their times all wrong. The sequence of events still holds good, it's only the times they estimated that were too far out.
Today we tend to know the time at any hour of the day - time is all around us. Many seem to have difficulty understanding a time when every day people were not sure what hour of the day, or minute of the hour, it was.

Not sure if you were aware but the importance of the question of "what time is it?" was relatively new in the 1880's.
50 years prior every town and city across the country followed a different time. It was the advent of the national railway that caused the country as a whole to adopt one consistent national time - GMT., this happened in the 1840's.
We find it hard to think of a time when the true time of day didn't matter all that much. Even in the 1800's people were still accustomed to rounding out the time to the nearest quarter-hour, they didn't place a great deal of importance to the true minute, whatever that was.

[c.d.]

"Obviously Im suggesting Jon that Louis, Eagle, Lave and Schwartz all gave false information. Since the first 3 are the only ones that could lose income/employment based on how this event is perceived officially, they all had reason to ensure this was seen as unrelated to any club member."

Hello Michael,

You only seem to look at this one way. But what would happen if this conspiracy blows up in their faces? I would say jail time for them and the club would most definitely be shut down. Your conspiracy theory is not a definite win/win situation for those three. The reality is that it could also be a lose/lose situation. And if it is all so obvious to you wouldn't you think the police would have had their suspicions as well?

Anyway, I have never seen any reason for the club to engage in a conspiracy. Just don't see the need.

c.d.