The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Ah, ok, that one. Sorry, I was familiar with that news story but hadn't recognized it as Wes (I take it he is the secretary of the club; it's hard to keep all the people in their places ). That story has always struck me as a weird conflation of the Schwartz story and the club's search for the police, not that that is evidence, just my own interpretation that makes me hesitant about it. I do see how it could mean Pipeman's name was obtained, but forgotten, though, which if that is the correct interpretation lends weight to Abberline's notion that Pipeman was not involved (as it implies Pipeman must have returned to the club and gave his name I guess?). On the other hand, Schwartz flees, and is possibly pursued by Pipeman, before Stride is murdered, so there's no way Pipeman would pursue Schwartz on the pretext of Schwartz being the murderer. This is why I think the story reflects some sort of weird mish-mash by the reporter, who perhaps was trying to piece things together and heard of the Schwartz tale, and of the club members running along Fairclough, and later going up Berner to Commercial where they find PC Lamb, etc. Obviously I could be wrong, but it doesn't quite fit right if viewed as the Fairclough bit is about Pipeman and Schwartz. I was hoping there was something else that I had missed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to change your view, just spelling out my own thoughts on that one. It's a bit of a dog's breakfast though, as they say. But thanks for letting me know. Much appreciated.

- Jeff

This is the paragraph immediately before the man pursued story...

The Club itself (proceeds the reporter), which is next door to the large gate, is now closed, but all this afternoon members and others who have special business there, are admitted after knocking at the door. The committee of the institution held a meeting this morning, at which the crime was talked over, and it was decided not to admit any stranger without the payment of a fee. The fee, the secretary explained, was to [???]. The committee, it seems, did not fix the amount to be charged; but, in reply to a question, the secretary said he thought that 5s. would not be too much. Considering there is nothing to be seen, this is rather an extortionate price to be paid by those whose curiosity leads them to Berner-street.

I get the sense that Wess was talking to the reporter about the meeting, which had been held in the morning, during the afternoon. This is a bit fascinating, because of what the Star says about the timing of Schwartz's visit to Leman St...

Information which may be important was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder.

So Wess seemingly knew about a ~12:45 incident before the police did. How? Did Schwartz pay his 5s and go into the club to tell his story? Did Schwartz know Pipeman's name?

[JeffHamm]

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18881001.html#:~:text=A%20MAN%20PURSUED,subject%20of%20conversation.

Ripper Confidential provides this quote:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

Ah, ok, that one. Sorry, I was familiar with that news story but hadn't recognized it as Wes (I take it he is the secretary of the club; it's hard to keep all the people in their places ). That story has always struck me as a weird conflation of the Schwartz story and the club's search for the police, not that that is evidence, just my own interpretation that makes me hesitant about it. I do see how it could mean Pipeman's name was obtained, but forgotten, though, which if that is the correct interpretation lends weight to Abberline's notion that Pipeman was not involved (as it implies Pipeman must have returned to the club and gave his name I guess?). On the other hand, Schwartz flees, and is possibly pursued by Pipeman, before Stride is murdered, so there's no way Pipeman would pursue Schwartz on the pretext of Schwartz being the murderer. This is why I think the story reflects some sort of weird mish-mash by the reporter, who perhaps was trying to piece things together and heard of the Schwartz tale, and of the club members running along Fairclough, and later going up Berner to Commercial where they find PC Lamb, etc. Obviously I could be wrong, but it doesn't quite fit right if viewed as the Fairclough bit is about Pipeman and Schwartz. I was hoping there was something else that I had missed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to convince you to change your view, just spelling out my own thoughts on that one. It's a bit of a dog's breakfast though, as they say. But thanks for letting me know. Much appreciated.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

An interesting question about Lave is how did he pay for his temporary accommodation? Perhaps he did odd jobs for the club. He goes into the yard, by his own estimate about 20 minutes before the discovery. So, at that point his is near the printing/editing rooms. He then goes "as far as the street". Was he just getting fresh air, as he claimed, or was he pulling down and putting up posters? I just wonder if our Parcelman was actually Posterman.

This is the sort of thing I had in mind.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Hi NBFN,

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation with Fiver, but I was unaware that Wes claimed the above! That's interesting to me, and I was wondering if you could point me to where that claim is recorded as I would like to read the source in its entirety.

Thanks.

- Jeff

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/echo/18881001.html#:~:text=A%20MAN%20PURSUED,subject%20of%20conversation.

Ripper Confidential provides this quote:

A MAN PURSUED. - SAID TO BE THE MURDERER.

In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the two latter running up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made about the difficulty there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be called from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation. There is, notwithstanding the number who have visited the scene, a complete absence of excitement, although naturally this fresh addition to the already formidable list of mysterious murders forms the general subject of conversation.

[JeffHamm]

What I've said is that Wess, having claimed to have been told the name of Pipeman, and mentioning that multiple members of the public believed him to have chased the murderer away from the scene of the crime, was in a rather tricky situation. ...

Hi NBFN,

I don't mean to interrupt your conversation with Fiver, but I was unaware that Wes claimed the above! That's interesting to me, and I was wondering if you could point me to where that claim is recorded as I would like to read the source in its entirety.

Thanks.

- Jeff

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The Jewish socialist conspiracy theory requires 20 to 30 people to agree to a lie that they had no way of knowing if it would conform to the physical evidence. Getting caught in that would put them in a very sticky situation.

Is there any evidence that Schwartz was part of the club, or is it being assumed because he was Jewish?

Mentioning Pipeman does not get Schwartz out of giving extra details. His account is full of unnecessary details that don't help the Jewish socialist conspiracy at all. The fight is an unnecessary detail. Broadshouldered Man speaking is an unnecessary detail. Stride crying out is an unnecessary detail. Pipeman's existence is an unnecessary detail. Pipeman's pursuit of Schwartz is an unnecessary detail.

Schwartz' account also makes him look callous and cowardly. And it has Broadshouldered Man act nothing like the Ripper, which is a massive blunder if the club is trying to point the case at the Ripper.

And if the Jewish socialist conspiracy is willing to commit mass perjury to protect a serial killer, why didn't they use the golden opportunity provided by Leon Goldstein? They have the testimony of Fanny Mortimer, someone who is not part of the club, putting Goldstein near the murder site at the right time, but in the street, so he couldn't have been the murderer. Goldstein even speaks English.

A conspiracy not composed entirely of idiots would have had Goldstein claim to have seen two people inside Dutfield's Yard in a position he could have seen them, but out of Fanny Mortimer's line of site. The woman will fit Stride's description. The man will fit Broadshouldered man's description or possibly Pipeman, massaged slightly to make sure he is as far from the vulgar stereotype of Jewish appearance as possible. The lack of violence, shouting, or a chase; combined with the relative darkness would let Goldstein be vague and uncertain if he needed to be, since who remembers much about total strangers seen for a few moments in poor lighting.

What I've said is that Wess, having claimed to have been told the name of Pipeman, and mentioning that multiple members of the public believed him to have chased the murderer away from the scene of the crime, was in a rather tricky situation. It was the account of 'Israel Schwartz' that got him out of that situation. That's a conspiracy of two - three if you count the interpreter. If you want increase that number by an order of magnitude, that's fine, but then it becomes your theory.

So you are saying that Abberline believed repeated screams could be fairly quiet?

He probably believed that if the story was true, the screams were below audibility given the noise emanating from the club. We cannot assume that Abberline had a thorough sense of the noise levels reported by various witnesses, by the time he interviewed Schwartz.

[Fiver]

What do suppose was going on, over on the footway, when Schwartz walked away? Had Schwartz not had his attention averted by Pipeman, he might have been obliged to give some extra details. That might leave Schwartz in a sticky situation, if he suggested something that was not compatible with the physical or medical evidence.

The Jewish socialist conspiracy theory requires 20 to 30 people to agree to a lie that they had no way of knowing if it would conform to the physical evidence. Getting caught in that would put them in a very sticky situation.

Is there any evidence that Schwartz was part of the club, or is it being assumed because he was Jewish?

Mentioning Pipeman does not get Schwartz out of giving extra details. His account is full of unnecessary details that don't help the Jewish socialist conspiracy at all. The fight is an unnecessary detail. Broadshouldered Man speaking is an unnecessary detail. Stride crying out is an unnecessary detail. Pipeman's existence is an unnecessary detail. Pipeman's pursuit of Schwartz is an unnecessary detail.

Schwartz' account also makes him look callous and cowardly. And it has Broadshouldered Man act nothing like the Ripper, which is a massive blunder if the club is trying to point the case at the Ripper.

And if the Jewish socialist conspiracy is willing to commit mass perjury to protect a serial killer, why didn't they use the golden opportunity provided by Leon Goldstein? They have the testimony of Fanny Mortimer, someone who is not part of the club, putting Goldstein near the murder site at the right time, but in the street, so he couldn't have been the murderer. Goldstein even speaks English.

A conspiracy not composed entirely of idiots would have had Goldstein claim to have seen two people inside Dutfield's Yard in a position he could have seen them, but out of Fanny Mortimer's line of site. The woman will fit Stride's description. The man will fit Broadshouldered man's description or possibly Pipeman, massaged slightly to make sure he is as far from the vulgar stereotype of Jewish appearance as possible. The lack of violence, shouting, or a chase; combined with the relative darkness would let Goldstein be vague and uncertain if he needed to be, since who remembers much about total strangers seen for a few moments in poor lighting.

It's a translation that Abberline accepted, so if you are going to call on the police support of Schwartz to justify a belief in his story, you too must accept it.

So you are saying that Abberline believed repeated screams could be fairly quiet?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

I did a quick measurement, plotting out a walk down Berner with a cross over to the other side, then on to Fairclough. That came to 427 feet, which at an average walking speed of 3.2 mph, would require 90 seconds (1.5 minutes), and that is without switching to a run at any point. Below are the measurements I used, but if one wanted to do this with a bit more rigor, one would make multiple versions as the final distance would depend in part on where you click the start and end points, and also the angle chosen for street crossing. However, while that would be necessary for a more complicated use, to get a rough idea of how long it would take Schwartz to get from one end of the street to the other, crossing the road at some point, this is probably good enough, and in the vicinity of 90 seconds is a good ball park estimate in my view. That's for the entire length of the street, so from the point B.S. first stops at the gates, Schwartz is already into that journey but I didn't want to make a call on such things as it would be subjective as to where I chose, which in turn could influence the final time estimate.


- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Thats much better than my estimations. Cheers.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I’ve never really understood why it’s considered an issue that no one else saw or heard the incident. No one had a stopwatch running of course but I’d estimate that the act of walking along Berner Street to the turning at Fairclough Street would take someone around a minute? Perhaps a little longer depending on walking speed of course. I’d estimate that the club gates were over three quarters of the way along the street (in the direction that Schwartz and BS man were walking) Lets]’s say that Schwartz was around 20\30 yards behind BS man when he stopped at the gates to talk to the woman (we can’t state the actual distance because it wasn’t mentioned)

So from that position how long would it have taken for Schwartz to continue walking, cross the street, continue walking, then cross back over and turn the corner into Fairclough Street…20 seconds, 30 seconds? So that was the approximate duration of the incident…20 or 30 seconds.

In a poorly lit backstreet at sometime around 12.45am an incident took place of a 20 or 30 second duration. It wasn’t very loud and involved only 4 people, two of whom left the street immediately while the remaining two are assumed to have moved out of sight into the yard. The only person that ‘might’ have also seen this incident is vague on what time she was or wasn’t on her doorstep around that time.

If she wasn't on her doorstep….its mystery solved.

How long had Stride been standing in the gateway, when Schwartz turns into Berner St? It is from the moment that Stride walks to the gateway that "the Schwartz incident" begins, because Schwartz alone places her at that location. Had she gone to the gates immediately on being seen by Smith, she is there for how many minutes, before she encounters the BS man? Then, for those who believe that BS goes off in a huff, and JtR approaches a few minutes later, what is her elapsed time at the gates? Five minutes? Ten minutes? Unseen by any witness, including Eagle, with the possible exception of Brown, but then she is having a conversation with a man and is not where she is supposed to be.

Moving Fanny away from her doorstep is not enough. Moving Fanny out of her bedroom (ground floor, front) and into the attic with the kettle on in the kitchen, is not enough. The mystery is not solved.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I were creating a story I wouldn't add Pipeman.

What do suppose was going on, over on the footway, when Schwartz walked away? Had Schwartz not had his attention averted by Pipeman, he might have been obliged to give some extra details. That might leave Schwartz in a sticky situation, if he suggested something that was not compatible with the physical or medical evidence.

I wouldn't include an assault. If I did, I would have the woman gasp or moan, and only once.

Of course Schwartz may have meant to say that the woman gasped or moaned.

To clarify, are you saying that if you were creating a story, you would have the woman gasp or moan, and also that you suppose Schwartz may have meant to say that the woman gasped or moaned?

As we don't normally think of gasps and moans as being very loud, why would Schwartz have need to add the "not very loudly" qualifier, if those were the sort of sounds he was thinking of?

Screaming, but not very loudly shows a bad translation, not proof of deception.

It's a translation that Abberline accepted, so if you are going to call on the police support of Schwartz to justify a belief in his story, you too must accept it.

[JeffHamm]

I’ve never really understood why it’s considered an issue that no one else saw or heard the incident. No one had a stopwatch running of course but I’d estimate that the act of walking along Berner Street to the turning at Fairclough Street would take someone around a minute? Perhaps a little longer depending on walking speed of course. I’d estimate that the club gates were over three quarters of the way along the street (in the direction that Schwartz and BS man were walking) Lets]’s say that Schwartz was around 20\30 yards behind BS man when he stopped at the gates to talk to the woman (we can’t state the actual distance because it wasn’t mentioned)

So from that position how long would it have taken for Schwartz to continue walking, cross the street, continue walking, then cross back over and turn the corner into Fairclough Street…20 seconds, 30 seconds? So that was the approximate duration of the incident…20 or 30 seconds.

In a poorly lit backstreet at sometime around 12.45am an incident took place of a 20 or 30 second duration. It wasn’t very loud and involved only 4 people, two of whom left the street immediately while the remaining two are assumed to have moved out of sight into the yard. The only person that ‘might’ have also seen this incident is vague on what time she was or wasn’t on her doorstep around that time.

If she wasn't on her doorstep….its mystery solved.

Hi Herlock,

I did a quick measurement, plotting out a walk down Berner with a cross over to the other side, then on to Fairclough. That came to 427 feet, which at an average walking speed of 3.2 mph, would require 90 seconds (1.5 minutes), and that is without switching to a run at any point. Below are the measurements I used, but if one wanted to do this with a bit more rigor, one would make multiple versions as the final distance would depend in part on where you click the start and end points, and also the angle chosen for street crossing. However, while that would be necessary for a more complicated use, to get a rough idea of how long it would take Schwartz to get from one end of the street to the other, crossing the road at some point, this is probably good enough, and in the vicinity of 90 seconds is a good ball park estimate in my view. That's for the entire length of the street, so from the point B.S. first stops at the gates, Schwartz is already into that journey but I didn't want to make a call on such things as it would be subjective as to where I chose, which in turn could influence the final time estimate.


- Jeff

[FISHY1118]

I'm in agreement Herlock . Ive ofter posted along the same lines of the time it could have taken for the entire Schwartz episode to have taken place .

From personal experience I witnessed an event my street from my front garden that involved an altercation between two people , the whole thing took about 45 sec I noticed when they had moved on almost immediately a family group turn the corner and walked right by the very spot where the ruckus had taken place.

They had no idea what had just taken place as I wished them a good afternoon. .

There is no great mystery where Schwartz is concerned ,only those to wish to make one .

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve never really understood why it’s considered an issue that no one else saw or heard the incident. No one had a stopwatch running of course but I’d estimate that the act of walking along Berner Street to the turning at Fairclough Street would take someone around a minute? Perhaps a little longer depending on walking speed of course. I’d estimate that the club gates were over three quarters of the way along the street (in the direction that Schwartz and BS man were walking) Lets]’s say that Schwartz was around 20\30 yards behind BS man when he stopped at the gates to talk to the woman (we can’t state the actual distance because it wasn’t mentioned)

So from that position how long would it have taken for Schwartz to continue walking, cross the street, continue walking, then cross back over and turn the corner into Fairclough Street…20 seconds, 30 seconds? So that was the approximate duration of the incident…20 or 30 seconds.

In a poorly lit backstreet at sometime around 12.45am an incident took place of a 20 or 30 second duration. It wasn’t very loud and involved only 4 people, two of whom left the street immediately while the remaining two are assumed to have moved out of sight into the yard. The only person that ‘might’ have also seen this incident is vague on what time she was or wasn’t on her doorstep around that time.

If she wasn't on her doorstep….its mystery solved.

[c.d.]

By Schwartz claiming that Stride's audible reaction wasn't loud, ergo, she didn't just typically scream out after being thrown to the ground, he is able to give an excuse as to why nobody heard the assault by BS man.

It could be said that her alleged reaction is rather odd because it does beg the question; why didn't she just scream or shout?

I think it was simply a bad translation. Too me, it indicates surprise more than pain or fear. If the BS man simply let go of her hand at some point while pulling her and she fell that could explain it.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I understand the difference between seeing nothing and seeing nothing unusual. I've made that point before, when discussing "why didn't X see Y" issues.

I can't of course say with certainty what Lave did and did not see. However, had Lave stated to the police that he was at the gates at a time they ascertained he should have been able to see the soon to be victim, they would be thinking the sort of things you and I and others think - where did Stride go so that no one sees her on the street again? The obvious (though not necessarily correct) answer is, Dutfield's Yard.

It may be reasonable to assume Lave could not say with certainty that he was at the gates at the crucial time, because he didn't know what the time was. Also, it does not appear that he knew or even saw the victim. If he did, he couldn't identify her, so he wouldn't know if Stride was in the street or not.
Lave makes no mention of being shown the victim at the morgue, so that should tell you his statement was viewed by police as worthless.