The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

[Wickerman]

Jon,.....

Its pretty clear to me that she says she stood, "nearly the whole time" at her door between 12:30 and 1. Yes, she wasnt there continuously, but why you would ignore "nearly the whole " is beyond me. You've decided that this means she was away from her door more than she says she was. Im unsure why, but your call I suppose.

Michael.

Mortimer makes no reference to standing there before she heard those heavy footsteps, and that began about 12:40, or just after.
This is why it must be accepted that she overestimated the length of time she stood at her door.
Also, she says she went to her door "immediately" after hearing the footsteps, but if that were true she would have seen who it was she heard walking passed, but she doesn't. So she can't have gone to her door "immediately", but a minute or two later.

Goldstein passed around 12:55, not after 1, that's why she had seen him on her "previous" time...previous to just after 1...at her door.

Yes, I was looking for some reference to a more exact time for Goldstein to pass. All I could find was Swanson's report.

Your last line is interesting, so...if she was at her door now 20 minutes as you say, from 12:40 until 1, where is Eagle, Lave, Schwartz, Pipeman, BSM, Spooner....et al. Its clear she wasn't at her door at around 12:40-45 if they are telling the truth. So, either they are all invisible to her, people lied, or your skewed interpretation of what she clearly stated is incorrect. For me her clarity is obvious, and the fact she indicates she saw a young couple on the street and someone passing the gates at around 12:55...the first is corroborated by Brown, the second by Goldsteins admission, ..means she saw no-one else during that time.

Spooner disqualifies himself right at the outset.
His statement begins with two men who came running along Fairclough st., these were Diemschutz & Kozebrodski. So it was already after 1:00 when these men came across Spooner. So, he's out regardless what time he thought it was.

Both Eagle & Lave came to the club "about 12:40", which was just before Mortimer heard those footsteps pass her window.

Schwartz, BSM & Pipeman are debatable timewise, and Mortimer could still have come to her door as they both left the scene, she only came to her door after she heard those footsteps, how long after we don't know.

None of those participants have anything to offer to contest Mortimer, or clarify the sequence of events.

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner disqualifies himself right at the outset.
His statement begins with two men who came running along Fairclough st., these were Diemschutz & Kozebrodski. So it was already after 1:00 when these men came across Spooner. So, he's out regardless what time he thought it was.

Both Eagle & Lave came to the club "about 12:40", which was just before Mortimer heard those footsteps pass her window.

Schwartz, BSM & Pipeman are debatable timewise, and Mortimer could still have come to her door as they both left the scene, she only came to her door after she heard those footsteps, how long after we don't know.

None of those participants have anything to offer to contest Mortimer, or clarify the sequence of events.

Check the Witness folder here Jon and see what Issac K says himself about when he went for help and with whom. He says around 12:45, and alone. No-one saw Eagle and Lave, apparently they didn't even se each other, which is odd since they give the same time for being at the entrance of that passageway. You have only their own remarks to use as proof. Again, Israel Schwartz's statement is provided in advance of the Inquest and yet is not noted, referenced or mentioned in any documentation that is known to exist from that Inquest. Ergo, what he claimed was not deemed relevant to the question of how Liz died, which would be unthinkable based on the content of his remarks. So IS, BSM and PM are just story characters without any significance and can be used at great risk to the uncovering of the actual facts.

Since Fanny must have stepped away from the door for Israel's statement to have any validity, I can see why you suggest she did.

[Cogidubnus]

Nope, I think the "footway" refers to the pavement, between the carriageway and the gateway.

Hi Joshua

So is that in "the street" or not? If it is, I repeat my question...why does Swanson use that "tried" and "but"?; if it is not in "the street"...you see what I'm asking? OK it's semantics...but so is distinguishing between footway as a place where folk walk and footway by the strict dictionary definition...and yes it's a shame Abberline's statement didn't survive to clarify this, but we have what we have...

Anyway, as I stated in a couple of other posts I've no real favourites in this race, either as suspects or otherwise; I lack the knowledge to express a really strong view. I merely wished to demonstrate that using the existing evidence, such as it is, a valid case, (and for the avoidance of doubt I certainly include Tom Wescott's in there!), might be made for more than one interpretation, and without descending into conspiracy theory...

Cheers

Dave

[John G]

I believe you've misunderstood what I've tried to say...I'm not rejecting anything Schwartz said...I even quoted Swanson's words verbatim...all I'm suggesting is that it might've been hard for Schwartz to see exactly how BS Man got Liz to the ground, as from the rear his body would've blocked the view. I don't think that's rejecting any evidence...nor is interpreting footway as a place where people walk...

Well, a dictionary definition of "footway" is a path or track for pedestrians. It most certainly isn't, a narrow passageway. Note: Schwartz stated that Stride was thrown down on the doorway, not launched into a narrow passageway by the side of a private club. Where's the evidence that Schwartz had difficulty seeing? However, if he did, doesn't that further undermine his evidence?

[John G]

Just to elaborate on my previous post. A footway is the technical term for of a footpath, or pavement: see https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/dictionary/footway

Therefore to describe the narrow private passageway in which Stride's body was found as a "footway" is, with respect, clearly nonsensical. Unfortunately, this is the kind of extreme reasoning that's necessary to make sense of Schwartz's evidence.

I would also point out that it's a criminal offence, under the 1835 Highway Act, to lead or drive a horse, or even a bicycle, upon a footpath, meaning that if Dutfield's Yard was a footpath/footway, then Louis D was guilty of a criminal offence, suggesting PC Smith was a bit lax in not arresting him!

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that there was, inside the passageway, a "footway" beside the wall, leading back to the open kitchen door. Maybe on to the yard after that. That is what Morris Eagle walked on when he returned to the club via the side door. It was so people could still pass while carts and horses came and went from the yard...in the days prior to the club being there.

[Joshua Rogan]

I believe that there was, inside the passageway, a "footway" beside the wall, leading back to the open kitchen door. Maybe on to the yard after that. That is what Morris Eagle walked on when he returned to the club via the side door. It was so people could still pass while carts and horses came and went from the yard...in the days prior to the club being there.

I'm not sure there was, you know.

Eagle merely said that "I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was"

Louis says: "The gutter of the yard is paved with large stones, and the centre with smaller irregular stones."

Stride's body was close to the wall, straddling the gutter. Or wheel rut, as Blackwell described it.

PC Lamb: "Her face was not more than five or six inches away from the club wall."

Dr Blackwell: "Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut."

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua

So is that in "the street" or not? If it is, I repeat my question...why does Swanson use that "tried" and "but"?; if it is not in "the street"...you see what I'm asking? OK it's semantics...but so is distinguishing between footway as a place where folk walk and footway by the strict dictionary definition...and yes it's a shame Abberline's statement didn't survive to clarify this, but we have what we have...

Anyway, as I stated in a couple of other posts I've no real favourites in this race, either as suspects or otherwise; I lack the knowledge to express a really strong view. I merely wished to demonstrate that using the existing evidence, such as it is, a valid case, (and for the avoidance of doubt I certainly include Tom Wescott's in there!), might be made for more than one interpretation, and without descending into conspiracy theory...

Cheers

Dave

Dave, I posted you a snippet from the press.
In the 19th century Footway was the forerunner of today's Footpath.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/elizabeth-stride/712210-the-schwartz-bs-man-situation-my-opinion-only?p=714252#post714252

[Wickerman]

Check the Witness folder here Jon and see what Issac K says himself about when he went for help and with whom. He says around 12:45, and alone.

Michael, please, Kozebrodski does NOT say "alone". He just says what "he" did.
Kozebrodski & Diemschutz were friends, the first man Diemschutz ran into the club to get was his friend Isaac Kozebrodski:

"A member of the club named Kozebrodski returned with Diemsschütz into the court,..."
Also, in another press account:
"A member of the club named Kozebrodski, but familiarly known as Isaacs, returned with Diemshitz into the court,.."

Kozebrodski went for a policeman:

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one."


Diemschutz says much the same thing, He tells the inquest what "He" did, except he includes returning with Spooner:

"I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat."


Spooner tells us he met TWO Jews running towards him along Fairclough, towards Grove:

"...I saw two Jews come running along and shouting out "Murder" and "Police." They then ran as far as Grove-street and turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter. They replied, "A woman has been murdered." I then went round with them to Berner-street,.....and I lifted up the chin of the deceased with my hand."

The two Jews were Diemschutz & Kozebrodski.

Eagle tells us he ran up to Commercial Rd. to look for a policeman, but Diemschutz, with another man went along Fairclough:

"Dienishitz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough- street."

The "other man" was Isaac Kozebrodski.

Seven months later Diemschutz & Kozebrodski were both on bail for assault:
"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons."

They were friends, Michael.

[Wickerman]

I'm not sure there was, you know.

Eagle merely said that "I naturally walked on the right side, that being the side on which the club door was"

Louis says: "The gutter of the yard is paved with large stones, and the centre with smaller irregular stones."

Stride's body was close to the wall, straddling the gutter. Or wheel rut, as Blackwell described it.

PC Lamb: "Her face was not more than five or six inches away from the club wall."

Dr Blackwell: "Her head was resting beyond the carriage-wheel rut, the neck lying over the rut."

Due to copyright issues I had to sketch what I saw on a photograph, the groove made by carriage wheels on the right side of the entrance to Dutfields Yard.
Small rocks laid along the clubhouse wall running up to the window at street level.



Here's a sketch from the press, nothing but grooves in cobblestones.

[Cogidubnus]

Dave, I posted you a snippet from the press.
In the 19th century Footway was the forerunner of today's Footpath.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...252#post714252

So it's fine...like I said, I have no particular axe to grind either way, but now I have to reconcile myself, contrary to a lifetime's experience, to the pavement or sidewalk, (the wording we use today for the footway as defined here), not being out in the street ...and on that happy note I bid you goodnight!

Dave

[Scott Nelson]

Seven months later Diemschutz & Kozebrodski were both on bail for assault:
"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz], 27, and Isaac Kozebrodski, 19, surrendered to their bail to answer an indictment for making a riot and rout, and for assaulting various persons."

They were friends, Michael.

Yes they were. And according to Randy Williams, partners in crime.

[drstrange169]

>> Diemschutz made reference to the Bakers clock on the corner of Berner st. (presumably at Commercial Rd. end?), that he passed on the way home.<<

The clock was on a Tobacconist shop, corner of Commercial and Berner, left hand side as you turn into Berner, the name of which escapes me at the moment.

If Schwartz's story were true, he propably used the same time source. Being such a prominent and nearby clock, the Mortimer household may even have used it as a means of setting the time in their home. PC Smith would also have presumably used it as a time source.

Interestingly, the tobacco shop also housed a make shift synagogue in a shed out the back. That particular assembly was known for celebrating a Jewish holiday in the days prior to the murder by offering free beer!

Again, if Schwartz's story was true, he may have been coming from there that night.

[drstrange169]

>>Almost certainly Wess and his Arbeter Fraints. The packages approx. size matches the printed edition of the paper.<<

Wess left with two other people and went to his house in the opposite direction to the couple the PC saw.

[drstrange169]

>>We would have to believe it was two minutes (or one minute?) before 1 o'clock as he passed the Bakers, in order for him to arrive "exactly" at 1:00. And, how would he know that? Therefore, "exactly" refers to the Baker's clock in my opinion.<<

I agree Deimshitz was refering to the shop clock, but when I timed myself from Dr. Blackwell's to the murder site it took me 1 minute 15 seconds, so Diemshitz's cart journey would only have been in the seconds.