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  • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    It's got nothing to do with preconceptions, and everything to do with the events described. If Heshberg says that he was alerted to the murder by the sound of police whistles, that means the police were at the gates before Heshberg, whatever time he thought it might be. If Spooner estimates that he arrived at the club at 12:35 and that the first PC arrived four or five minutes later, that means the police were at the scene as early as 12:40. Or Spooner wasn't very good at estimating times.
    Do you think the police were at the scene by 12:45, as these two witnesses show?
    Exactly Joshua, put aside the times and simply apply the sequence of events, the story speaks for itself.
    Estimated times can be unreliable, but the sequence of events does not lie.
    Likewise with Spooner, he was alerted by two Jews looking for a policeman, it doesn't matter what time he thinks it was, the murder had already happened.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • -Fanny first stands at her door, 12:30..sees young couple
      -Wess leaves
      -Pc Smith sees Liz with someone, 12:35
      -Lave stands at the gate from 12:30 to 12:40, doesn't see anyone, no-one sees him
      -Eagle arrives back at the club at 12:40, isnt seen, doesnt see anyone and isn't sure whether he passes a dying woman on the ground
      -Israel sees Liz being assaulted outside the gates at 12:45, no one else sees Israel, Liz outside the gates after 12:35, -the attacker, or someone else Israel claims was hanging around
      -Brown sees the young couple at 12:45
      -Spooner, Heschberg, Gillen and Kozebrodski all say they were in the passageway with the dying woman at 12:40-12:45
      -Fanny goes to her door for 10 minutes starting at 12:50
      -Leon Goldstein walks past the gates at 12:55, Fanny sees him.
      -Louis says he arrives "precisely" at 1, no-one including Fanny sees him arriving
      -Fanny goes indoors and a few minutes later hears a "commotion".

      That's makes 3 people that appeared from nowhere on a deserted street, 2 people that were virtually beside each other at 12:40 and don't see each other, 1 person who cant be sure at 12:40 he didn't pass a body inside the passageway, and 4 people who stated they were by the dying woman at 12:40ish.

      So that's a workable series of events for you 2 folks? Just some minor timing errors is it? Doesn't trouble you that no-one at all confirms anything Lave, Eagle, Schwartz or Diemshitz says? I hope neither of you ever serve on a jury, or if I commit a crime, that you serve on one at my trial. Im not sure if its gullibility or intellect that is the issue here, but you both are being quite ridiculous stating your belief in a "series of events" that cannot coexist in any real world we know of.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        I know that on many occasions her comments state pretty clearly..." I went in at 1:00" Jon, though I see you'll stick with your interpretation of the times given and event schedules anyway. So be it.
        But Michael!, I am sticking with what she said, you are sticking with what she didn't say.

        Please provide that quote (in which newspaper?) where she says "I went in at 1:00" - you've made it up, it doesn't exist!
        It's what you want to believe, on the contrary she actually places herself inside already at 1 o'clock.

        But as to the access to time pieces, it seems interesting to me that of the 4 people who said they were by the body at 12:45, 3 of them had come out from inside the club, where Im pretty sure larger timepieces would be readily available. Only 1 estimated, ..and curiously, his time matched the three others anyway. Imagine that. 4 witnesses claim to have been by the body at 12:45. Let that settle in.
        I had already suggested to you that the club clock may have been wrong by that same 20 minutes.


        4. There are no witnesses who saw Louis arrive, there are no witnesses who saw Israel Schwartz, no witnesses saw Liz Stride outside the passageway after 12:35, other than the aforementioned Israel Schwartz, who no-one saw, ...no one saw Eagle arrive, 2 witnesses saw a young couple, and 1 witness saw a man pass by the gates around 12:55...which the passing man later agrees with in his statement Tuesday night. No-one heard "Lipski", other than Mr Schwartz, no-one saw Pipeman, other than Mr Schwartz, and no-one saw a Broad shouldered man on the street,...except of course Mr Schwartz. Yet Fanny was at her door throughout that last half hour, she only saw the maidenfernless young couple, whom Brown also saw.
        I cannot defend Schwartz, I do think something is wrong with his story.

        You've categorically dismissed 4 corroborating stories in favour of others that have no corroboration at all. Does that seem prudent to you Jon? I laughed when you said " all this Michael is very,very basic "...like I just missed the obvious somehow , but I find a lot to support my contentions here and little, if any, to support what you seem adamant to support, the conflicting and puzzling mess of stories and timings that do not line up in any way...no matter how liberal you decide to be with exact times. I find it interesting how often the times are assumed incorrect because they don't fit with the preconceptions.
        I thought the times given by Mortimer are very simple to place in sequence, they almost speak for themselves if we allow a minute or two either way.


        Although If I recall you also support Carrie Maxwell too, correct me please if I am mistaken.
        Not me Michael, I'm quite sure she mistook some other female for Mary Kelly.

        I did argue that the stories by Maxwell & M.Lewis were the most prevalent theory available that first weekend indicating that Kelly died late Friday morning, not because I believed Maxwell, but that the public did.
        Maybe I confused you with that

        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          -Fanny first stands at her door, 12:30..sees young couple
          Michael.

          Fanny does not say she stood at her door at 12:30, the "between 12:30 and 1:00" is refined by herself into beginning at "just before 12:45" and "for 10 minutes".
          Why can't you just accept that?, it's exactly what SHE says.
          The "nearly the whole time" turns out to be no more than ten minutes.

          Wess, with his brother leaves the club at 12:15.
          The first activity that occurs at 12:30 is Lave coming out of the club and stayed out until 12:40. He saw no-one enter the yard. Letchford passed through Berner st. at 12:30, nothing unusual.
          - 12:35 PC Smith sees Stride talking with a man opposite the club.
          - 12:40 Eagle returns to club through side door in the yard.
          - "just before 12:45" Mortimer hears heavy footsteps like a policeman walking passed.
          - 12:45 Mortimer first stands at her door, and stays there until 12:55.
          - 12:55 Goldstein walks passed the club into Fairclough st.
          - 01:00 Deimschutz arrives with his cart (heard by Mortimer), and discovers the body.
          - "just after 1:00" Mortimer goes to her door for the second time.

          Spooner's times are redundant due to the fact the murder had already happened when he was alerted (it was already after 1:00am).
          Heshburg was not certain of the time - "12:45, I should think" when he first heard of the discovery.
          Kozebrodski, "about 12:40 Deimschutz called me to the yard", again not sure of the time.
          Schwartz, incident described involving three people at 12:45 hard to reconcile with available evidence.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            ...... She was at her door, by her statement from 12:50 until 1. No Louis arriving, no cart leaving at that time. That means the cart was moved after 1, not before as I suggested. Ok. That's fine.
            But Mortimer says she heard the cart arrive, she didn't say she heard it leave.

            Just give Mortimer some credit Michael. She lived two doors from the club so obviously she hears Deimschutz cart every Saturday leaving for the market in the morning and arriving home at night. She knows the difference between the clip-clop getting louder and nearer, compared with the clip-clop getting fainter and further away.

            You're trying to sell the idea that a person cannot tell the difference between an approaching sound and a receeding sound, gladly science has already proven you wrong.
            Miss any science classes at school Michael?

            Do you remember something called the Doppler Effect?
            http://www.phys.uconn.edu/~gibson/No...6_3/Sec6_3.htm

            No Michael, Mortimer heard the approach of a horse & cart, because it was getting nearer & louder. Science is on her side.




            Regards, Jon S.

            Comment


            • "I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by."

              "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road...I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him."


              Im not sure why that's unclear.


              From an earlier post of mine on a thread about this subject ".....
              Heres another question...although Im still hoping someone will address the issue of Israels address on Berner Street. Does anyone recall a mention of Louis's horse and cart being in that yard or passageway, or out on the street, once Spooner, then Johnson arrived? I would imagine that once Louis discovered the body he would then have to make some decision about where to leave his cart and horse before running into find Mrs D in the kitchen. The stables were unused. The passageway is too narrow for that cart and horse
              and the investigators and bystanders. The street, or the yard seem likely spots. Anyone recall a mention that they were left in either of those places? My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard? Which is probably where Louis should have led his horse before going to Berner Street....so, why did he stop in at the Club when he still had to offload his cart elsewhere?"

              You seem to have some issues with people being unable to differentiate the direction of a sound if they are not in a direct path of the sound, I think that there are factors which determine how precise one can be when calculating the sound direction.."...
              Time lag, wave length and tone - all these factors play important parts for the brain when determining the direction of sound
              ." hear-it.org.




              Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-06-2019, 09:51 AM.

              Comment


              • What Fanny heard while not at her door is subject to scrutiny, "bootsteps and cart and horse" does not identify anyone in particular, nor can we be sure of the direction she believed the sounds were going.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  [LEFT]"I was standing at the door of my house nearly the whole time between half-past twelve and one o'clock this (Sunday) morning, and did not notice anything unusual. I had just gone indoors, and was preparing to go to bed, when I heard a commotion outside, and immediately ran out, thinking that there was another row at the Socialists' Club close by."

                  "It was soon after one o'clock when I went out, and the only man whom I had seen pass through the street previously was a young man carrying a black shiny bag, who walked very fast down the street from the Commercial-road...I was told that the manager or steward of the club had discovered the woman on his return home in his pony cart. He drove through the gates, and my opinion is that he interrupted the murderer, who must have made his escape immediately under cover of the cart. If a man had come out of the yard before one o'clock I must have seen him."


                  Im not sure why that's unclear.
                  There's nothing there I disagree with, except, that you know it's not true, and that she subsequently says she first went to her door "just before a quarter to one", and stood there for ten minutes. Why don't you include that statement?

                  From an earlier post of mine on a thread about this subject ".....

                  Heres another question...although Im still hoping someone will address the issue of Israels address on Berner Street. Does anyone recall a mention of Louis's horse and cart being in that yard or passageway, or out on the street, once Spooner, then Johnson arrived? I would imagine that once Louis discovered the body he would then have to make some decision about where to leave his cart and horse before running into find Mrs D in the kitchen. The stables were unused. The passageway is too narrow for that cart and horse..
                  No mention is made, but why would moving the horse & cart further into the yard out of everybody's way be newsworthy?, I guess for the same reason we are not told the colour of the horse.

                  My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard?......
                  You seem to have some issues with people being unable to differentiate the direction of a sound if they are not in a direct path of the sound,...
                  No, it's quite simple. As the sound (horse & cart) comes towards you it gets louder, as it moves away it gets fainter.
                  Very basic science lesson, which makes your plot redundant.
                  You're challenge, is to explain why she wouldn't know the difference when it's a basic scientific fact.


                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    What Fanny heard while not at her door is subject to scrutiny, "bootsteps and cart and horse" does not identify anyone in particular, nor can we be sure of the direction she believed the sounds were going.
                    Given that Mortimer lives on a police beat means she hears those bootsteps three or four times an hour all day and night. Which means she knows the difference between a female passing, a policeman, or any another working man. For her to say it sounded like a policeman is very relevant, she is able to make an informed decision because she hears it constantly, whereas we cannot.

                    The sound of the horse & cart coming nearer or going further away is all that matters.
                    In fact, Diemschutz stores the horse in Cable street, which is south of his yard. He arrived from Commercial Rd north of the yard (where he passed Mortimer's house), and, if he was leaving (as you say) would then turn south towards Fairclough street, which does not pass her house.

                    So you are saying Mortimer may not have been able to distinguish between a horse & cart passing her house from Commercial Rd. as opposed to one not passing her house but taking the route south towards Fairclough.
                    That's a tough argument to try sell.
                    Regards, Jon S.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                      From an earlier post of mine on a thread about this subject ".....
                      Heres another question...although Im still hoping someone will address the issue of Israels address on Berner Street. Does anyone recall a mention of Louis's horse and cart being in that yard or passageway, or out on the street, once Spooner, then Johnson arrived? I would imagine that once Louis discovered the body he would then have to make some decision about where to leave his cart and horse before running into find Mrs D in the kitchen. The stables were unused. The passageway is too narrow for that cart and horse
                      and the investigators and bystanders. The street, or the yard seem likely spots. Anyone recall a mention that they were left in either of those places? My point is,.....did Fanny hear a cart and horse arriving...or being led away to offload the merchandise in its stable on George Yard? Which is probably where Louis should have led his horse before going to Berner Street....so, why did he stop in at the Club when he still had to offload his cart elsewhere?"
                      ​​​​​​Morning Advertiser 2 Oct
                      "It is a two-wheeled barrow. The pony is kept at George-yard, Cable-street. I do not keep it in the yard of the club. I was driving home to leave my goods. I drove into the yard"

                      "...By a Juror.-Was there room for you to have passed the body with your cart?-Oh, yes. Mine is not a very wide cart; it only took up the centre of the passage."

                      "...I went into the club, and asked where my missus was. I saw her in the front room on the ground floor.
                      What did you do with the pony in the meantime?-I left it in the yard by itself, just outside the club door."

                      Comment


                      • Good post Josh, I don't recall seeing that though Im sure I have over the years. That cart and pony sound after Fanny has gone inside is admittedly difficult to reconcile with what I believe is the truth among the chaff in these stories, but if it was as narrow as he claims, they might have had to move it on out for beginning of the investigation. The stables were investigated that night and were unused, I dont recall any police observation of the cart after they were on the scene. My real problem here is that by far a majority of witnesses claimed to have been in that passageway over a dying woman, with very little variance.. at around 12:45. If we leave peripheral problems aside, like Schwartz and the question of Browns ID, and we presume some timings for Fanny, at her door "off and on" during this time period, there isn't really a huge problem accepting those 4 witness times. Eagle "couldn't be sure" whether a body was there at 12:40, and he walked right past the spot where Liz would be.

                        A street cant be deserted, then suddenly populated, then suddenly deserted again in a most probable scenario, sure, it could have been like that, but seemingly orchestrated events for me reek of imagination rather than recollection. The "goods" in Louis's cart would have to be offloaded regardless of the goings on, and Im not sure how late he could have accessed George Yard to stable the horse. There might be some traction in that.

                        Comment


                        • Randy Williams had this whole thing scoped out if you guys would only take heed.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                            Randy Williams had this whole thing scoped out if you guys would only take heed.
                            I hadn't heard of the man Scott, but after looking him up I find his choice of suspects amusing, since Ive championed some mischief ideas about Louis here for what seems like forever now. Only in context of Stride though. I find a terrorism type motive as having possibilities for some of these murders, people seeking social upheaval is a possible source. In fact I believe that Stride may have bene mistaken for someone spying on the club.

                            The characterization of Diemshitz and Kozebrodski, in that intro to Mr Williams theory, is perhaps a better angle to approach these club members. Having a bad reputation is one thing, a smoking gun is another. Liz Strides murder could have been that smoking gun. But why would Louis kill her there, presuming she was killed for the same reasons he says the three men killed all the women, essentially to cause dramatic change in the area and challenge laws?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
                              Randy Williams had this whole thing scoped out if you guys would only take heed.
                              You sound a tad more positive than the last opinion piece you wrote about him.
                              Anything changed?
                              https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...928#post554928
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • "Healthy speculation...there may be something to it..."..seems like it was a generally positive piece Jon. I personally do not believe that 3 men worked in tandem killing, seems a tad far to go for answers that may be much closer at hand. I do think that the club staffers misled the investigation, I think one due to his role in charge there, and the other due to the fact that he had arranged to meet the victim that night.

                                What Israel Schwartz offers is a tonic for their fears of discovery of their deception...whatever it was, ..some events like the initial discovery transpiring earlier than they said, protecting someone at the club who did the deed, protecting the club from further scrutiny....Israel and BSM give them an "aha" moment,...see officers, a gentile anti-Semite was assaulting the poor woman outside the gates just before she was murdered....

                                If you look at what Israel claims though, there is real reason to doubt the veracity. He claims he was returning from the market, so why is he on Berner Street instead of Brick Lane at 12:45 at night? Surely no-one believes his story he was checking to see if his wife had finished moving...she had ALL DAY to move what likely was very little, he likely wouldn't have left her all day if it involved some heavy lifting. Immigrant Jews had nothing...no furniture to speak of, hardly any clothes, why would his wife need 13 hours to move that? It was far more likely she would be at their new home at that time. Where on Berner Street did he live as of that morning? Was he in one of the cottages inside the passageway? Was he a club member or regular? What was the nature of his acquaintance with Woolf Wess? What did he buy or sell that day..if he bought, where was that stuff? Did he attend the meeting that night? Why doesn't he come forward before Sun evening? Why doesn't Goldstein come forward before Tuesday evening...we already know Fanny saw someone. Why does Issac K claim he was sent out alone, by Louis, at around the same time Schwartz later says he saw the "altercation"? Why doesn't Louis mention that? If you have stories based on only the word of individuals vs the word of 4 corroborated accounts of events, which would you gravitate towards?

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