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The Schwartz/BS Man situation - My opinion only

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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post

    You sound a tad more positive than the last opinion piece you wrote about him.
    Anything changed?
    It was tongue in cheek.

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    • Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
      If you look at what Israel claims though, there is real reason to doubt the veracity. He claims he was returning from the market, so why is he on Berner Street instead of Brick Lane at 12:45 at night?
      Sorry Michael...When does Schwartz say he was returning from the market? What is it that indicates he should be on Brick Lane? In his statement to the Star reporter he merely says he's been out all day...perhaps he was at work, as befits an LVP man supporting his wife.

      why would his wife need 13 hours to move that? It was far more likely she would be at their new home at that time.
      The reasons for the move and details thereof aren't stated. We don't even know any family or other commitments they may've had...for reasons unknown to us, they may not've been able to move in until somebody else moved out...we simply DON'T know. You can bet your boots though that Abberline DID know all these things though...If you think he didn't ask, then I suggest you're seriously underestimating the man...

      Was he in one of the cottages inside the passageway? Was he a club member or regular? What was the nature of his acquaintance with Woolf Wess? What did he buy or sell that day..if he bought, where was that stuff? Did he attend the meeting that night? Why doesn't he come forward before Sun evening?
      There seems to be no reason for this suggestion of a connection with the club...It appears to be a purely speculative invention for which there is no firm evidence at all.

      Cheers

      Dave

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      • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post

        Take Schwartz out of the equation and all the testimonies add up. Put him in and nothing makes sense. Including his two different versions of what he claimed happened.
        I just find it very unlikely that Mortimer who seemed to be able to detect and identify a policeman's footsteps walking outside her door would be unable to hear someone shout "Lipski" and Liz giving a startled cry right outside her door.

        Bless her, she seems like one of those nosy little bittys, but she is definitely the most reliable witness we have on Berner Street - her and Goldstein.

        Comment


        • Hello Garza,

          Except that they weren't right outside her door and we don't know if she was actually standing at her door at the time. Remember her testimony is that she did so "off and on" for part of the claimed time.

          c.d.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by c.d. View Post
            Hello Garza,

            Except that they weren't right outside her door and we don't know if she was actually standing at her door at the time. Remember her testimony is that she did so "off and on" for part of the claimed time.

            c.d.
            C.D.

            It practically was right outside the door, Fanny Mortimer lived a couple of doors down from the socialist club - that's about 15-20 ft in a terraced housing street. I don't know if you have had the chance to walk down Berner/Henriques Street but it is narrow - and with two storey houses lining each side of it - it would have created an echo - like a lot of Victorian era terraced housing (I have lived in a lot of said terraced housing, still do but my street is way wider than Berner Street and even then people just talking at night is amplified, let alone a drunk shouting.)

            The echo is likely why Mortimer could hear and identify footsteps outside her door.

            Now, have someone yell Lipski in a street like that in the dead of night - I can assure you someone would have heard it - in fact almost the whole street should have heard it. I find it hard to believe that no-one collaborated Schwartz's story if the events went down as he said they did.

            Also lack of physical evidence as well. Schwartz said that Liz Stride was pushed down to the ground - the ground consisting of a wet and dirty East End street. Yet we see no dirt or grime on her backside or front, nor her hands where she would instinctively put out to break a fall. No slight abrasions on her hands that they might have to break a violent push the ground. Nor did she have a dirty handkerchief that she might have wiped her wet/dirty hands with. Not to mention it was stated the body showed no signs of the struggle at all.

            Police during the Ripper investigation received a lot of false testimony - it is not at all unfathomable that a few squeezed through the cracks and were taken seriously by the police. Schwartz might have been mistaken in the time, street, identity or hell he may have just morbidly wanted to see a dead body or some excitement of being the centre of attention instead of the duldrum and hardship of an East End life.

            But still, the fact that no-one can corroborate a fantastic and loud event as Schwartz described fills me with skepticism.

            Comment


            • Hello Garza,

              The whole question of whether Mortimer would have heard the yell of Lipski of course depends on whether or not she was actually at her door at the time. We do know that she had a sick husband and several children. Could she have been drawn away from the door by them for a few moments? The other question of course is how accurate was she with her times? But let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she was at the door at the time.

              We now have to determine if she could have heard a "yell." Schwartz's statement said the man he saw "called out" Lipski. How does a yell differ from calling out? I have no idea. I see no reason for the B.S. man to yell in the same way that someone shouting "fire" would yell or someone screaming for help. I would assume that he was looking directly at Schwartz with an aggressive look on his face and maybe an accompanying gesture. That should have been sufficient to get his point across. Did he really need to scream at the top of his lungs?

              Your point about lack of mud on her dress is a good one. I was under the impression that there was mud on her dress so I can't really comment further on that point. Lack of abrasions on her hands would bolster the idea that Schwartz only witnessed a little street hassle and not a violent attack. That her body showed no signs of a struggle does not conflict with Schwartz's testimony because he did not witness her death. To me, it seems to indicate that he only saw a street hassle and that her real killer came along later.

              c.d.

              Comment


              • Fanny Mortimer says that between 12:30 and 1am that she was at her door "nearly the whole time". People need to stop re-interpreting what she said. She was clear. She didn't hear or see Israel Schwartz, Pipeman or BSM, she didn't see Louis arrive, she didn't see 2 men running for help, she didn't see Lave standing at the gates....interesting that all these things are statements that are not corroborated by anyone. Fanny did see the young couple...as corroborated by Brown, and she did see Goldstein pass, as corroborated by Leon himself. That's 2 separate sightings, both corroborated. She was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am, and in the most glaring contradiction of all, she did not see Louis coming down Berner Street at all, something he said he was certain of. " I arrived at the club at precisely 1am".
                Michael Richards

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