Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[protohistorian]

Hello Maria, The vagus nerve severance would instantly stop her heart. There would be no further blood flow. Oxygen within her blood in the brain would very quickly be exhausted and cerebral tissue death would ensue within seconds. The 3 minute estimate is VERY generous, and the 1 minute estimate is probably closer to the reality. Dave

[mariab]

To Protohistorian:
Thus I assume that a severed carotid and jugular vein lead to a very quick death due primarily to asphyxiation, not blood loss?
My (obviously amateur!) estimation of the time it required Stride to die was based on two accounts:
1) An incident with a young woman cut in the throat and left for dead who survived in South Africa. http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/alison_ripper_rapist/1.html
2) Another incident in South Africa, about a body boarder (friend of acquaintancies) who was attacked by a great white shark on his upper body, managed to paddle back in to the shore (with the help of his friends), but died about 8' minutes later from severe blood loss.
I agree with what Phil Carter said pertaining to clainched fists from stress, but I insist that as a symptom, it's also a dead giveaway (no pun intended) for asphyxiation.

[Phil Carter]

Hello all,

Re. Cachous.

As they were found still within the closed hand, in my view, there are one or two very clear things.

Nobody, I suggest, would try and hold on to a handful of cachous in the middle of a struggle, as the person would most likely need the fingers of the hand to use, either to grip, tear, scratch or push. Also to hold off. There is only one scenario I see for the cachous to remain in the clenched hand under a struggle, that is to punch the assailant.

Therefore, based on the amounts of usage available for an open hand vis a vis a closed one in the possibility of a struggle under confrontation, the open hand would give far more options. Therefore, in my opinion, there was no real struggle. At least not physical. (Possibly oral)

The mere "shock" of sudden attack would, imho, cause a tenseness in the whole body, upon the immediate realisation of violence. If the body WAS relaxed when attacked, the hand would have been open. Therefore, imho, it was not relaxed, ipso facto, it was in a state of tension, hence, closed hand around the cachous.

Just an opinion as I see things though.

best wishes

Phil

[protohistorian]

less than 3 minutes

Less than a minute is a fair estimate. Severed structures include key elements of the sympathetic nervous system,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympathetic_trunk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve

and key elements of the circulatory system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_carotid_artery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugular_vein

overview

http://factsfactory.blogspot.com/2008/01/how-long-can-we-survive-without-oxygen.html

It is beyond certainty, not more than 3 minutes unless one wishes to invoke atypical Stride biology and assert that her tissues did not perform in the manner documented by science. Dave

[mariab]

Lynn cates wrote:
There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.
Her clenched hand IS a sign of strangulation. Obviously I don't mean fatal, elaborate strangulation with a rope, just a strong stranglehold, immobilizing her and preventing her from breathing until she fell to the ground.

Lynn Cates wrote:
Yes, she held on to the cachous tightly. But so would one in my scenario.
I'm so sorry, Lynn, but I'm not clear on what your scenario implies, besides your (historically correct) position pertaining to the wall. Also, please consider that it's nearly impossible to recreate possible scenarios with the cachous WITHOUT really attempting to strangle or stranglehold somebody – which I don't particularly recommend!
In other words, your wife would have totally been able to throw the cachous to the other side of the room while you were “assaulting“ her. She was physically totally unrestrained to do that, if she wished.

[mariab]

Corey 123 wrote:
In truth Elizabeth Stride died in less than a minutes time, so yes, it was sudden.
Come on Corey, we don't have any material proof of this, and the timeline of this particular case is a mess (with what all the different witnesses have claimed). My guess is Stride took much longer to die, even up to 10 minutes perhaps.

Corey 123 wrote:
I also think that the blood resulted from her attempting to alter the blood flow.
Actually I too have thought of that as a possible explanation for the “grapes“ in her right hand, as in, she might have automatically, semiconsciously touched her bleeding throat with her right hand when the assailant left her. But then how come her left hand kept holding on tightly to the cachous while her right hand was moving freely? I honestly believe that Tom Wescott's theory of Johnston having contaminated Stride postmortem by taking her pulse makes much sense. And I know that Fisherman has expressed serious doubts in the possibility that a medical man would contaminate a body, and Fisherman favours the theory that Stride was a domestic killing and her killer had second thoughts after his act and touched her.

[lynn cates]

cause

Hello Maria. No, no. I mean what is CAUSING her unconsciousness? There are absolutely no signs of strangulation.

Yes, she held on to the cachous tightly. But so would one in my scenario.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Why would she be unconscious?
Lynn, we've discussed this already in numerous Stride threads. She would be unconscious or around unconsciousness because she clenched her hand (with the cachous) instead of letting the cachous go and trying to free herself from her assailant's stranglehold.

[corey123]

Corey, death is never completely sudden. It's a process, it takes several minutes at the shortest, and one invariably looses consciousness before one dies.
Apart from this, the term “blood clots“ used in October 1888 is not the same as the medical term of “blood clotting“ today, which is a whole different thing. In 1888 by “blood clots“ they simply meant coagulated blood (=blood dried out on her hand), so this has nothing whatsoever to do with Stride being conscious or not.
In my opinion, Stride's hand was clenched due to strangulation before she reached the ground. It very much looks like a blitz attack where she didn't even have time to react. (Plus, from what we know about her, she was not the type of woman to react so much.)

In truth Elizabeth Stride died in less than a minutes time, so yes, it was sudden.

I also think that the blood resulted from her attempting to alter the blood flow, but considering the sudden death, this led to awkward posture of the hand when she fell. Sort of a reflex if you will.

[mariab]

Corey, death is never completely sudden. It's a process, it takes several minutes at the shortest, and one invariably looses consciousness before one dies.
Apart from this, the term “blood clots“ used in October 1888 is not the same as the medical term of “blood clotting“ today, which is a whole different thing. In 1888 by “blood clots“ they simply meant coagulated blood (=blood dried out on her hand), so this has nothing whatsoever to do with Stride being conscious or not.
In my opinion, Stride's hand was clenched due to strangulation before she reached the ground. It very much looks like a blitz attack where she didn't even have time to react. (Plus, from what we know about her, she was not the type of woman to react so much.)

[lynn cates]

points

Hello Corey. You are making some good points there.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

conscious

Hello Maria. Why would she be unconscious?

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Lynn has a point here, if the death was not sudden, that would mean either of two things-

She would have dropped the cachous or;

They were planted there. However, why would a killer do this? Also, the hand was clenched so it seems natural.

This, along with blood being clotted on the back of her hand proves she was most likely conscious when she died.

[mariab]

Sorry Lynn, no time to look up Dr. Blacknell's testimony right now.
In my humble opinion, Stride was unconscious before she got to the ground.

[lynn cates]

por que

Hello Maria.

"I strongly assume that Stride's head was lifted from the ground, most probably by her scarf, when he finished her off."

Why on earth would he do that? How did she get on the ground? If there was a struggle getting on the ground, the cachous would be gone.

My scenario is just basically Dr. Blackwell's.

Cheers.
LC