Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[mariab]

Garza,
I think she might have died even later, as Corey says, but I wouldn't really trust the times as claimed by the witnesses, apart from, maybe, PC Smith.
As for Stein, he didn't go almost over Stride's body with a horse and carriage.

Lynn,
apathy, you're so right, that's what I feel! And rebelling (as in “I don't feel like writing that f...ing piece of crap of another proposal“.) I don't think it's clinical depression (which I've had), as I don't feel depressed. Just very lazy. And if it's burnout, then only pertaining to musicology, NOT Ripperology. But then again, the former is work, and the latter is play...
(So casebook even provides free shrink sessions...nice of them.)

[corey123]

Garza,

Its specualtion to adress a time window. She could have died anywhere from 12:45-12:59.

We just don't know.

[Garza]

Garza, why don't you believe the killer was disturbed by Diemshitz?

Liz Stride had a small window of time to meet her killer, between PC Smith around 12.40-45 and a few minutes later when Mrs Mortimer came out. 4 minutes probably at most.

So be disturbed by Diemshitz, the killer would have to kill Liz Stride, then stand around for about 10-15 minutes until he heard Diemshitz. Very unlikely.

Don't forget also that Stein walked passed mere yards from the dead Liz Stride, before Diemshitz. Wouldn't that be worrying to the killer as well as Diemshitz?

[corey123]

Hello Maria,

Its fine.

[lynn cates]

apathy

Hello Maria. About tiredness and apathy.

Question: What is the difference in ignorance and apathy?

Answer: I don't know and I don't care.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Corey, please excuse me for (stupidly) criticizing your dead-in-about-1-minute assessment!
Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Maria. I think you just read my mind!
About what?

[corey123]

Lynn,

I would assume so.

[lynn cates]

right

Hello Corey. You are right, the cachous would be flung about.

Cheers.
LC

[corey123]

Hello Maria,

No worries.

Garza,

I agree it is possible, and we can't throw out the possibility, whether Jack killed her or not, this doesn't truly affect any out comes does it? Adds perhaps a struggle and would most likely lead to the dropping of the cachous, but it is possible.

[lynn cates]

mind reader

Hello Maria. I think you just read my mind!

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

assumptions

Hello Garza.

"She was uncons[c]ious when she hit the [ground], or else she laid down voluntarily"

Why on earth assume this? It strikes me like a debate about whether her bonnet fell off or was pulled off.

"Liz and her killer [e]nter the yard, she turns facing the wall away from her client to put a mint in [her] mouth, she closes up the packet of mints in her hand."

Very well. Can you describe a natural sequence leading up to this? [And please don't say to perform oral sex for, with cachous in mouth, he would have yelped in pain--thus being heard over the strains of Tum Balalaika from within.]

"Out of nowhere, her killer takes her scarf in two hands and pushes her against the wall with his body . . ."

And there go the cachous!

". . . strangling her with the scarf. Her arms are either side of her, her arms can't move, except up and down, if that - as she is pinned against the wall on her chest. Her hands tighten, she can't escape."

And of course, her dress isn't torn or even rumpled in all this. Hmmm.

"As she slips into unconsciousness, the killer lowers her down with his left hand only, her bow slips to the left of her neck, he lowers her down until only the head is lifted off the ground."

Rather a slow motion variant of mine? Very well.

"Standing over her and with the head lifted for ea[s]ier access, he cuts her neck, left to right. The reason why I think possibly the cut more was shallow was because the killer was standing up, not kneeling down when he done it."

But while he is looking for easier access, why not kneel? After all, don't you believe that this is the same fellow who killed Polly and Annie?

"Interestingly if he was standing up while he was doing [this], (assuming Jack killed Liz), maybe he wasn't planning to mutilate Liz at all and planned all along to kill 2 people that night."

Why?

"Serial killers often think of more daring acts as they go along, its a way from projecting power over police and society. But again, one can only assume this."

Yes, an assumption. But why assume a serial killer? [Have you been reading "Dear Boss" or something of that sort?] Why not see a murder in your mind and then try to ascertain what lead up to it?

"Or else he was disturbed, but probably not by Mr. D - like so many think."

Indeed. With that open side door, there should be a good deal of traffic.

Bottom line: Liz showed NO signs of struggle. She looked "as if she had been laid gently down." But such signs of struggle would be required by your scenario.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Lynn Cates wrote:
Hello Maria. I sympathise. Believe me, I know busy.
Thank you so much, Lynn, you're very kind and I know you know busy. The worst is, I hardly feel motivated nowadays, I don't even feel like going out, I wish I could go to sleep for a week. (But playing around on casebook I still feel like doing! Addicted, much?)

[mariab]

Garza,
I mostly agree with your scenario, especially with the Stride-not-having-fainted part and with the assailant-cutting-her-standing-up, hence-relatively-shallow-cut part. Why don't you believe the killer was disturbed by Diemshitz?

[lynn cates]

sympathy

Hello Maria. I sympathise. Believe me, I know busy.

Thanks.

Cheers.
LC

[Garza]

Hello Garza. Permit one to grant, for the moment, that one can be strangled without any signs of strangulation. I would ask:

1. Why assume that Liz was strangled?

She was unconsious when she hit the floor, or else she laid down voluntarily - which I'm sure you agree due to the wet muddy ground is very unlikely. Tom proposed she might have fainted, but a side affect of fainting is relaxed muscles, hence mints everywhere.

2. How long did this take? Are we to assume that her assailant choked her into unconsciousness? Would she not be, at some point, flailing her arms and throwing cachous about?

Strangulation to unconsiousness takes up to 30 secs. Liz Stride would be able to flail her arms if she was pinned against the club wall, chest on the wall.

Here is what I think happened, could be wrong of course, but let me draw my foot in the sand.

~ Liz and her killer inter the yard, she turns facing the wall away from her client to put a mint her in mouth, she closes up the packet of mints in her hand.

~ Out of nowhere, her killer takes her scarf in two hands and pushes her against the wall with his body, strangling her with the scarf. Her arms are either side of her, her arms can't move, except up and down, if that - as she is pinned against the wall on her chest. Her hands tighten, she can't escape.

~ As she slips into unconsciousness, the killer lowers her down with his left hand only, her bow slips to the left of her neck, he lowers her down until the only the head is lifted off the ground.

~ Standing over her and with the head lifted for eacier access, he cuts her neck, left to right. The reason why I think possibly the cut more was shallow was because the killer was standing up, not kneeling down when he done it.

~ Interestingly if he was standing up while he was doing, (assuming Jack killed Liz), maybe he wasn't planning to mutilate Liz at all and planned all along to kill 2 people that night. Serial killers often think of more daring acts as they go along, its a way from projecting power over police and society. But again, one can only assume this. Or else he was disturbed, but probably not by Mr. D - like so many think.

I suppose someone will argue that, "Liz was killed by "Jack" and he always strangled first." But I sincerely hope not.

I won't argue that.