Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[mariab]

Garza wrote:
Push someone against a wall with something in their hand, 9 times out of 10 they will retain whats in their hand.
Not at all. Years ago, a fellow grad student forcefully pushed me against a wall during a conference while I was holding some papers. The only reason I didn't drop the papers is because I shoved them in his face. (After having spent about 20´´seconds with a dropped jaw out of surprise.) Plus I don't necessarily assume the pushed-against-the-wall scenario for Stride's slaying.

Garza wrote:
Out of interet why would you trust PC Smith for time? He said he came to the crime scene at 1am, he clearly did not.
He said at 1.00 a.m.? I wasn't aware of that! (I'm a newbie.) I just assumed he had a clock available between making rounds.

Corey123 wrote:
Only free sessions if you like the idea of having a thearapist as nutty as we are. If not, the price stays at 45$ a session.
Fits with the extreme nuttiness of the patient. $45 for a session? Way too much! I just payed $60 (or rather, 60-€) for a one way flight ticket to Paris (with sleazyjet, the most unpredictable airline of all).

[Garza]

Hello Garza,

Dont forget that when Diemschizt found the body that he went inside the club to se if his wife was ok,then to return with Eagle and Kozebrodsky and then he probaly calculated the time as 1:00. I would deduct at least 2-3 minutes for that. So it turns out that it is very likely that he found Stride earlier than 1:00.

Just a thought

Could be.

[corey123]

Hello Garza,


No no no, I am not ruling it ouot. Quite the contrary actually. Only pointing out that it is speculatory.

[Garza]

Well then why go through all the trouble of asphixiation then just to cut her throat? I am not saying it isn't possible, just speculation.

I understand that only 25% of strangulation victims have signs, but the fact is, in this case, there were none. So it would be speculation to include it into the senerio.

Less messy.

With only 25% of strangulation victims having signs, you should definitely not rule it out.

[corey123]

Hello Garza,

Dont forget that when Diemschizt found the body that he went inside the club to se if his wife was ok,then to return with Eagle and Kozebrodsky and then he probaly calculated the time as 1:00. I would deduct at least 2-3 minutes for that. So it turns out that it is very likely that he found Stride earlier than 1:00.

Just a thought

[Garza]

Garza,

Its specualtion to adress a time window. She could have died anywhere from 12:45-12:59.

We just don't know.

True, that is why I said that if the killer was disturbed, it probably wasn't Mr. D.

The time frame probably was 12:44-12:48 or 12:55-12:59.

I wouldn't be saying these probable time windows if Stein hadn't backed up Mrs. Mortimer's testimony.

[corey123]

Well then why go through all the trouble of asphixiation then just to cut her throat? I am not saying it isn't possible, just speculation.

I understand that only 25% of strangulation victims have signs, but the fact is, in this case, there were none. So it would be speculation to include it into the senerio.

[Garza]

Hello Garza,

The only problem with this is that if it wasn't Jack the Ripper, then why cut the throat if she was already dead?

She wasn't dead, she was unconscious. Two very different things.

[Ben]

If Schwartz wasn't lying, we may consider it a near certainty that she was killed by the broad-shouldered man.

I don't get involved in Stride threads very regularly as I have tended to remain "on the fence" regarding most issues, acknowledging the merit in most arguments, both against and in favour of Stride as a ripper victim. The only scenario that I continue to resist very strongly is the idea that Stride was attacked by two successive, yet entirely separate individuals at the same location and in a very short space of time. It posits the existence of a ludicrous coincidence, and it really isn't needed to explain the presence of cachous in Stride's hand.

The cachous are far more indicative of preparedness for attack on Stride's part then they are of a sudden onslaught.

Push someone against a wall with something in their hand, 9 times out of 10 they will retain whats in their hand.

Abso-bloody-lutely, Garza!

Best regards,
Ben

[Garza]

Garza,
I think she might have died even later, as Corey says, but I wouldn't really trust the times as claimed by the witnesses, apart from, maybe, PC Smith.
As for Stein, he didn't go almost over Stride's body with a horse and carriage.

Out of interet why would you trust PC Smith for time? He said he came to the crime scene at 1am, he clearly did not.

[corey123]

Hello Garza,

The only problem with this is that if it wasn't Jack the Ripper, then why cut the throat if she was already dead?

[Garza]

Why on earth assume this? It strikes me like a debate about whether her bonnet fell off or was pulled off.

Laid down gently.

Very well. Can you describe a natural sequence leading up to this? [And please don't say to perform oral sex for, with cachous in mouth, he would have yelped in pain--thus being heard over the strains of Tum Balalaika from within.]

Well if the cachous were put underneath the tongue, not really. She could have just fancied a mint at the time.

And there go the cachous!

No not all! Push someone against a wall with something in their hand, 9 times out of 10 they will retain whats in their hand.

And of course, her dress isn't torn or even rumpled in all this. Hmmm.

Nope, not at all, the only pressure the killer is applying is to the throat via the scarf and inbetween her shoulder blades, thats all- nothing more.

But while he is looking for easier access, why not kneel? After all, don't you believe that this is the same fellow who killed Polly and Annie?

Maybe for easier access, due to the rough surface of the stones, as Tom says. Or, it was just the way it played out. Hear me out.

If you strangle a person with your hands, you need two hands to lower them down. However if you have lever device, like a scarf you can do it with one.

The killer lowered Liz down with one hand, giving him a free hand, meaning her could be even further away from the neck when he cut it, im sure it was a nice surprise for him. All he had to do was lift the head a little, and cut the neck - but by doing it that way, the wound would be more shallow, as some of the pressure of the knife would be lost. While he could apply full pressure to the others while they were flat on their back, he couldn't in this instance.

It also explains why Liz was found on her side and not her back, she was lowered with one hand by the scarf. While the others were laid down with BOTH hands and appeared on their backs.

"Interestingly if he was standing up while he was doing [this], (assuming Jack killed Liz), maybe he wasn't planning to mutilate Liz at all and planned all along to kill 2 people that night."

Why?

Who knows? If we knew the mind of Jack, there would alot less mysteries now wouldn't there lol.

Yes, an assumption. But why assume a serial killer? [Have you been reading "Dear Boss" or something of that sort?] Why not see a murder in your mind and then try to ascertain what lead up to it?

Nothing to do with the letters, I don't pay attention to the letters anyway. I only assumer a serial killer (in this case Jack) because of the similarities.

Indeed. With that open side door, there should be a good deal of traffic.

Open door = good deal of traffic? That's an assumption. A closed door can have large amounts of traffic, while an open door can have none at all.

Bottom line: Liz showed NO signs of struggle. She looked "as if she had been laid gently down." But such signs of struggle would be required by your scenario.

No not at all, she couldn't struggle at all because she is pinned against a wall, more likely by a stronger person. That's also why I think she was unconscious by the time she hit the floor - she was laid down gently.

[corey123]

Hello Maria,

Only free sessions if you like the idea of having a thearapist as nutty as we are. If not, the price stays at 45$ a session.

[corey123]

Hello Lynn,


I would say that the way one preceives time is by what witnessess they grant truthful.

[lynn cates]

time

Hello Garza. You are assuming Louis' report as factual. Corey is right--based on what a couple of witnesses said, the death could have been as early as 12:40.

Cheers.
LC