Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[c.d.]

Hi Lynn,

Forensics of the body position? With all due respect, I think we have given you several very plausible explanations to explain her body position but you have refused to accept them.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

Andrieux

Hello Maria. Of course, Paris was the home of Rachkovski's Okhrana branch office.

Names? Well, a famous English anarchist, Fred Charles, swore and be darned that a French police official, Andrieux, exploded some bombs in Paris just to implicate anarchists. Andrieux wrote some memoirs so you might check there.

Good luck.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Hello Lynn,
by the by, I LOVE your motto "The Scots are the men that won't be payin' for nothing."!
Everything not yet researched is speculation, but the one great thing with Berner Street is that there are TONS of paths that can still be researched. (In comparison to, say, Miller's Court. As it happens, I suspect Barnett, but can I research him further? Unfortunately, no.)
Pertaining to the Okhrana's track record of utilising local private detective agencies to assist them in their activity, could you email me any possible information that you have from the secondary lit? Especially with names, and please, urgently if anything concrete is mentioned about Piotr Rachkovsky's activities in Paris. It has time until the weekend (Sunday is fine, as I'll start looking at the Paris Archives Nationales next Monday.)
Lynn Cates wrote:
The solicitation people can give an almost good reason for Liz to be in the yard, but they cannot account for the forensics of the body position.
Lynn, most probably NO solicitation took place in Duttfield's Yard. There was no time for this. Solicitation was probably solely used as a ploy to lead Stride into an “isolated“ place (as much as those existed in Victorian Whitechapel).

[lynn cates]

stones

Hello Maria. You are right that Okhrana involvement is speculation. However, the cold blooded killing I suggest in this thread fits the body position as well as the domestic scenario espoused by Fisherman. Moreover, it gives us a good reason for Liz to be in the yard which is much weaker on the domestic view. The solicitation people can give an almost good reason for Liz to be in the yard, but they cannot account for the forensics of the body position.

Now, let's continue. Tom has shown that it is likely that a private detective agency tampered with the evidence and with a potential witness. Why would this occur? 2 possible reasons. 1. The agency itself is involved with the killing. (I find that unlikely.) 2. The one/s involved in the killing bungled it, leaving either a piece of evidence or an unwanted witness. I find that HIGHLY likely. Hence, given the Okhrana's track record of utilising local private detective agencies to assist them in their work, I find a better inductive probability in pursuing that line of investigation further.

To put it another way, every time I turn over a stone on Berner st, I find a new titbit that screams, "Keep going!"

Otherwise, I would not keep expending money on this thing. After all, you know my motto: "The Scots are the men that won't be payin' for nothing."

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

Yes, Tom's suggestion, with new information added by Lynn Cates, and with a couple ideas of mine. Which will be researched. If there are any positive or non positive results, I'll post them (possibly even next week).

[Fisherman]

Aha! Tom´s suggestion! Been there, seen that, done that ... not my cup of tea, for reasons I have given before.
But interesting nevertheless!

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

No Fish, I'm considering the possibility of a Le Grand cum accomplice scenario here. With the purpose of murder. JUST as a possibility, with the intention of researching it.

[Fisherman]

"I'm not implying that BS was Stride's own pimp"

Uh-huh. Then I guess it could make sense if he was trying to move her into his own economic forces - up to the point where he instead drags her into the yard and kills her, that is. Very uneconomical behavior.
Moreover, if he was a pimp, trying to "persuade" her to join forces with him, then I would be much inclined to side with C D and start asking for evidence of a roughing up.

...or are you suggesting that the pimp did his thing and left, only to be swopped for Jack?

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

"Away from solliciting"? Fish, I'm not implying that BS was Stride's own pimp.
I've very thought of that, and there are 2 possibilities:
1) BS pulls Stride along, trying to get her somewhere quiet and private.
2) BS is trying to get Stride to Pipeman across the street, but is interrupted by Schwartz.

[Fisherman]

Maria:

"to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride."

It would be an unusual pimp who tried to drag his income source away from soliciting, Maria! And an interesting prostitute who resisted!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

C d:

"The problem with the domestic scenario is that everything in it seems to go against what most people would expect as the norm."

I have no problems understanding what you mean, C d, and we´we discussed this before. As always, I would like to point out that every single person is unique, so is every relationship between two persons, and equally every death. Of course we can ask for the norm, but let´s keep in mind that Jack the Ripper was anything but norm-relating to begin with! Not that I see him in Dutfields yard ...

One thing that I think belongs very much to this discussion, especially if we are to adjust to things like norms and such (maybe one should speak about prejudices sometimes, even), is that I believe that most of us would agree that people of different nationalities will communicate and interact in culturally inherited patterns to some degree. For instance, people from southern Europ stand closer to each other as they speak than people from northern Europe, Italians generally use their arms and hands more than Brits when communicating etcetera. And it may have perhaps have played some role that Stride was Swedish - Swedes on the whole are not given to flamboyant exchanges and loud communication. That, I feel, may partially explain why things went down silently. Just a suggestion, of course, but one that may have something to it, I reckon.
Apart from that, although they are not normative, I think that every nation has a degree of swift killings, unaccomapnied by slappings around - although we may have expected it. And if we are only to allow for the norm in peoples behavior, we paint ourselves into a corner.

The best,
Fisherman

[mariab]

Abby,
pimp or punter obviously as JTR. BS's physical description doesn't fit with Michael Kidney, but Pipeman's description fits with Le Grand. It would be nice if BS's physical description could get researched. As for an Okhrana agent, as Lynn Cates speculates, well in that case I'd expect him to be smart enough to avoid attacking Stride openly and clumsily on the street, in front of witnesses. On the other side, if the Okhrana (as they sometimes used to do) had recruited a certain detective agency (Le Grand's), it wouldn't surprise me that the attack was carried out so clumsily. It goes without saying that all this is nothing but sheer speculation and should be/will be researched.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,
to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride. What I'd like to do (much later, during the winter) is to research BS's physical description for similar incidents. And obviously someone needs to REALLY research Schwartz' connection to the IWMC (which we're partly doing, checking out Der Arbeter Fraint for possible job listings and activities, or, ideally, even for names mentioned).

Hi Maria
Why just Pimp/punter? Could not BS man incident be any male/female interaction that involves physical attack? Such as-

Female/prostitute/Stride with:

Pimp (as you say)
Punter (as you say)
Punter as JtR
Husband/lover/BF
Gang member
Overzelous religious type
Overzelous PI/detective/cop
Anti gov agent
etc.

[mariab]

Hi Abby,
to me the BS incident looks like a pimp/punter interaction with Stride. What I'd like to do (much later, during the winter) is to research BS's physical description for similar incidents. And obviously someone needs to REALLY research Schwartz' connection to the IWMC (which we're partly doing, checking out Der Arbeter Fraint for possible job listings and activities, or, ideally, even for names mentioned).

[Abby Normal]

I COMPLETELY agree with C.D. that Stride is too sudden and clean-cut for a domestic. No buildup, no hints of her being roughed up before the kill. Doesn't quite add up for a domestic.

Hi maria
I don't think it was a domestic, but if I.S. is to beleived (and I do), then in my mind the BS man story looks like a possible domestic (does it not?) with the initial fracas in the street ending up in the alley with the murdered lover.