Liz Stride Re-Enactment

[lynn cates]

qualification

Hello Maria. Well qualified--"if they existed."

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

To Ben and Lynn Cates:
I won't even dare to ask what's a pocket protector.
Wow, Lynn, you managed to bruise her knee with the pillow and all? Not good...
I wasn't able to watch that You Tube Protohistorian posted, as it wasn't licenced in Germany (which sometimes happen).
I completely insist that people pushed against a wall won't desperately hang on to what they hold in their hands. I'm entitled to contribute on this, having been pushed against a wall more times than I care to remember, starting as a kid (and, interestingly enough, it hasn't stopped...).
To all:
There is the possibility that BS (if he ever existed) was the Ripper. Or even that Pipeman (again, if he ever existed) was the Ripper.

[Fisherman]

C d:

"it would be boring as hell if everybody agreed"

Absolutely not! (wouldnīt wanna bore you, C.d!)

Interesting points made that I challenge:

1. "Nine times out of ten, when somebody is pushed into a wall, they hold on to what they are holding in their hands"

Wow! Is there any empirical study on this remarkable assertion? And since we seem to be speaking of some sort of reflex, more or less, why does it not work in the tenth case...?

2. Stride was attacked by BS man.

That may be true and it may be untrue. Obviously, Schwartz says that she was pushed to the ground by BS, but the original move on his behalf was to try and drag Stride along with him, into the street. Therefore, if Stride resisted this and pulled the other way, and if BS man lost his grip, it becomes a very good suggestion that she may have fallen as a result of this. Itīs Newton, quite simply. At any rate I think that it may well prove a tad harsh to speak of an "attack", since attacks are always intended, and we cannot possibly know it this was an element at hand in Berner Street. There was a physical exchange of some sort, and Stride fell as a result of it, this much - but no more - is what we can tell.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

empathy

Hello Dave. Very unpalatable. Funny, after we finished my wife grew pensive and said solemnly, "Now I have some idea of what that poor girl went through."

Indeed!

Cheers.
LC

[protohistorian]

No worries Sir, I thank her for being a good sport about what is essentially an unpalatable topic! Dave

[lynn cates]

bolshoi spasibo

'Ello Dave. Now I thanks ya' an' the missus thanks ya'.

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Ben -I have to say that I disagree with you about BSM and Liz.

I personally would plump for Liz being a victim of JtR, and this seems to fit with her soliciting, going willingly with a client to a dark spot off the street,
being attacked with no time to call out, and clutching the cachous in a 'death grip' with the suddeness of the attack, and the way that her throat was cut. More contentiously, being murdered in proximity to a jewish club.

I can't equate her murder with BSM drawing attention to himself in the Street, with Pipeman standing nearby (even if we agree that Schwartz was genuine and 'unforeseen').

I don't know what to make of BSM -he clearly didn't want Liz to stay in that spot, but I don't think that he'd want any witnesses if he hoped to mutilate her....and wouldn't Pipeman have come forward with such a huge reward offered for JtR's capture ?

Given the 'timeline' Jack couldn't have been far away when Schwartz passed
-but I don't think that he was BSM.

[protohistorian]

for Mrs. Cates

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8HRCacAQ-4

Dave

[lynn cates]

demo

Hello Garza.

"No not all! Push someone against a wall with something in their hand, 9 times out of 10 they will retain whats in their hand."

I trust you've tried this--empirically. Hope your demo partner was not injured.

Being lowered by the scarf is fine. Part of my scenario.

All of this would be easier if you could do the demo. It CAN be done safely--my wife reports only a bruised knee.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

rage

Hello CD. What rage?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

nerds

Hello Roy.

"Come to think of it, where is your pocket protector?"

Ah yes! No well dressed nerd should be without one!

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Absolutely, CD, and if it can be acheived with the civility that characterized our brief exchange there, all the better!

[c.d.]

Well, Ben you and I completely disagree with respect to the cachous and there is no point in going over old ground so I guess we will have to agree to disagree. No problem. That's what these boards are for and it would be boring as hell if everybody agreed.

c.d.

[Ben]

Now if you want to say well yes but they weren't murdered shortly after

Not just "shortly after", CD, but at the very same location and by an entirely separate individual. It this, I suggest, that really stretches coincidence. And there's still no problem as far as the cachous is concerned.

Best regards,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hi CD,

No, but what Schwartz described clearly was, which makes the suggested "two unrelated attackers" scenario seem very plausible indeed.

Best regards,

Ben

Hi Ben,

But are we to simply ignore her circumstances at the time this "attack" by the BS man occurred? I would venture to guess that given the nature of prostitution and the rough men in Whitechapel at the time,at least one other prostitute was "attacked" that night. Now if you want to say well yes but they weren't murdered shortly after, it is the time element that is important and much less so her encounter with the BS man.

c.d.