From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[Aethelwulf]

I agree Wulf. We should wary of simply saying:” was Nichols really the first victim or might it have been Tabram,” when it could have been one of those that you’ve quoted or even a previously unmentioned one. It might be worth an effort for someone to check around my neck-of-the-woods to see if there were any similar unsolved attacks which might potentially be suggested as early efforts by Bury. This might already have been done but it might be an interesting exercise.

It wouldn't surprise me if JtR had gone from perhaps spying on women when young, to physical abuse/attempted rapes etc. As he gets older his frustration and anger increases, meaning he can just stop a stranger like Annie Millwood and repeatedly stab her. If you look at Wilson, her attacker asked for money and when she refuses he stabbed her twice in the throat. To me that doesn't sound like the actions of a first time attacker - for someone to lash out like that as the first reaction. I would say the same about what happened to Smith.

The problem with suspects is pinpointing exactly where they were early on. We're getting off topic here but in terms of Bury I would have thought an interesting time to search might be around 1884 he was living as vagrant in Dewsbury. He was sleeping with a penknife under his pillow in Bow and you'd think being a vagrant might require some sort of self defence if necessary. He also caught an STD in the east end and living as a vagrant he might have been using prostitutes. He could blow up explosively and the combination of those three things, temper, potentially having a knife and using prostitutes...Also his time when younger in Wolverhampton. I suppose against that the 'profile' says these sorts of crimes often begin late twenties (Bury was 28/29 in the east end).

May if I get time I will have a look, though not sure where to start, probably local papers if online. Obviously the name bury wouldn't turn up or would be on the police files section of ancestry which I've checked, but unsolved nasty things may have happened where he was.

It's also one of the things I question about Lechmere. I have time for Lech as a suspect, but for someone who was a long-term resident of the area before and after 1888, I just struggle with the idea that someone of JTR's level of offending wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves at some point, before or after, or that they would just stop for that matter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Perhaps a bit like having a terrible diet doesn't mean you'll defo have a heart attack, it just increases the likelihood. I don't know the stats but I'd be surprised if most offenders of serious crimes didn't have some troubled background and history of other lower level offences earlier on. One very recent highly publicised case springs to mind where I thought how can someone go from zero to doing something terrible like that. Turned out he'd been offending at a lower for years before. That's why I think it's a mistake for people to just write off the attacks on Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson & Emma Smith. Tabram is a definite for me.

I agree Wulf. We should wary of simply saying:” was Nichols really the first victim or might it have been Tabram,” when it could have been one of those that you’ve quoted or even a previously unmentioned one. It might be worth an effort for someone to check around my neck-of-the-woods to see if there were any similar unsolved attacks which might potentially be suggested as early efforts by Bury. This might already have been done but it might be an interesting exercise.

[Aethelwulf]

Is it an absolute fact that all killers have been ‘in trouble’ before being revealed as a killer or is this a convenient generalisation?

Perhaps a bit like having a terrible diet doesn't mean you'll defo have a heart attack, it just increases the likelihood. I don't know the stats but I'd be surprised if most offenders of serious crimes didn't have some troubled background and history of other lower level offences earlier on. One very recent highly publicised case springs to mind where I thought how can someone go from zero to doing something terrible like that. Turned out he'd been offending at a lower for years before. That's why I think it's a mistake for people to just write off the attacks on Annie Millwood, Ada Wilson & Emma Smith. Tabram is a definite for me.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Given the title of the thread (from Mitre Square to Goulston Street), why is so much discussion given to Jewish topics? Just because of one perceived word in the GSG. But what of the Ripper's travel from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I personally don't think that occurred. I suspect he went somewhere else first and then reemerged with the apron and clean hands. But where?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Butchers Row perhaps Tom. Maybe a City PC did see a suspect nearby, not at Mitre Square but leaving say, Butchers Row or somewhere nearby later on [ say 1 : 40 for instance ] after he had deposited the organs or/and cleaned himself up . At the time maybe missed as vitally important only later coming to light. Just a thought .

Regards Darryl

[Wickerman]

For fear that it may have got lost in the middle of an ongoing side "discussion" on the previous page, my question again from post #306...

How did the apron piece come to go from Commercial Street police station to Leman Street station?

If I recall correctly, Dr Phillips had something to do with it.
Phillips came to Commercial St. to pick up the piece of apron and take it to HQ (Leman St.), he was the person who subsequently took it to Golden Lane Mortuary where Dr Gordon-Brown was investigating the body of Eddowes.
It might take some time to locate the source, it's many years since I read this.

[Curious Cat]

For fear that it may have got lost in the middle of an ongoing side "discussion" on the previous page, my question again from post #306...

How did the apron piece come to go from Commercial Street police station to Leman Street station?

[Tom_Wescott]

The Prayer Book Rebellion ..... with that Gawain guy who resided in Sutton.

I don't have a FB page.

My bad. That should tell you how long it's been since I was on the boards. Briefly confused you with Debs. But, of course, you're Deej!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

The Prayer Book Rebellion ..... with that Gawain guy who resided in Sutton.

I don't have a FB page.

[Tom_Wescott]

How is the book going Tom?

Commissioner Arif! Was just looking at your FB page again today. The Le Grand book? It's not going. Yet. Been working on non-Ripper stuff for the last few years. Thinking about doing revised editions of TBHM and RC first, but not sure.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DJA]

Given the title of the thread (from Mitre Square to Goulston Street), why is so much discussion given to Jewish topics? Just because of one perceived word in the GSG. But what of the Ripper's travel from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I personally don't think that occurred. I suspect he went somewhere else first and then reemerged with the apron and clean hands. But where?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

How is the book going Tom?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

But what of the Ripper's travel from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I personally don't think that occurred. I suspect he went somewhere else first and then reemerged with the apron and clean hands. But where?

I have been saying the same thing repeatedly.

Somewhere in Spitalfields and not far from Goulston Street.

[Tom_Wescott]

Given the title of the thread (from Mitre Square to Goulston Street), why is so much discussion given to Jewish topics? Just because of one perceived word in the GSG. But what of the Ripper's travel from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I personally don't think that occurred. I suspect he went somewhere else first and then reemerged with the apron and clean hands. But where?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I never said the murderer was Jewish

I never said you did!

[Darryl Kenyon]

That's different from saying that the murderer had to be Jewish.

I never said the murderer was Jewish

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I don't see a difference between saying the murderer had to be Jewish and saying the murderer had to be a Gentile.

The Jews of the East End never said that the murderer had to be a gentile, but the police evidently understood that the murderer was a gentile.

It is only now, on account of what Anderson and Swanson wrote more than twenty years later, that people are saying that the police at the time believed the murderer to be a Jew.

They did not.