From Mitre Square to Goulston Street - Some thoughts.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff.

I must confess, I struggle to see that interpretation in the first bold sentence, also I wouldn't have thought the north end of Goulston St. was on the way to Berner St. either.

Hi Wickerman,

No worries. I've put the statement below to make it easier for me to refer to so I can try and explain how it reads to me (your own reading may differ, of course).

It appears after perpetrating his foul work in Mitre-square the miscreant retraced his steps towards the scene of the crime which he had committed an hour or so earlier.

The bits I've left in bold, one underlined and one in italics, make me think this is referring to JtR having gone distant (perhaps to a bolt hole, though they don't actually say that of course) and then returned. The first bit describes JtR "retracing his steps" and going "towards the scene of the crime". If he was leaving, he would be heading away, and there would be no "retracing of steps". As such, that part of the sentence seems to suggest JtR must have gone passed Goulston Street first, and has now returned to drop the apron.

Also, the 2nd bit, in bolded italics, suggests the time of the apron drop is an hour or so after the crime, which again doesn't fit with the idea that he's dropped it on his initial departure.

Anyway, that's how it reads to me, and perhaps I'm overlooking another interpretation. Happens all the time.

Later in the article, though, the description is much more in line with dropping it as he initially leaves the scene.

- Jeff

[Abby Normal]

Hi Tom,

Ages ago I had a play with that sort of idea. It's a very simplistic analysis, and so results in a larger area than one would end up with if applying a more sophisticated approach, but it is probably good enough for general purposes.

What I did was take the time from the likely time JtR leaves Mitre Square (around the time PC Harvey patrols Church Passage, so around 1:41 ish type thing), and the time the apron piece is found in Goulston Street by PC Long. I then worked out the distance JtR could travel over that interval at a normal walking pace (3.2 mph). I start JtR at Mitre Square, head him out in all directions until he reaches a distance from Goulston Street that would require the remaining time for him to get there. All distances are just "as the crow flies", which of course overestimates how far he could actually get. Also, I didn't give him any time at his destination (the longer you presume JtR stays at his "bolt hole" to clean up, the smaller the area would get).

I just plotted a circle around Goulston street (the actual shape would be slightly oval) to crudely plot this maximum area, and it looks like this:



Basically, given the time between the murder and the discovery of the apron by PC Long, the range that JtR could cover to get to a bolt hole is pretty large.

If one believes Stride is a victim of JtR, then I think the locations near Berner Street can probably be considered less probable (I think one would expect him to go straight home at that point if he lived near Berner Street). It also seems to me (and this is of course pure speculation), that if his intention of going back out to drop the apron piece was to misdirect the police, then the vector from Mitre Square to Goulston would be one pointing in a wrong direction, but when he's come back out, he's also likely to want to avoid approaching Mitre Square, where he would expect police activity. As such, I tend to favour areas to the North or North West, but given that's all based upon speculating as to his decision making, I'm not suggesting anyone has to agree with me on that.

Of course, if one believes he spent a fair bit of time cleaning up before going out, the area shrinks accordingly. Coupled with my thinking above, I think the one "suspect" that it sort of fits with (and I'm not suspect oriented), is the Stake Out on Windsor Street mentioned in the Times on Oct 2nd ("...At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer....").

But, of course, that location was being watched at the time and nobody was seen entering/leaving that spot, so despite how it sort of fits with my impressions, it appears that's not it. Sigh.

Anyway, as I say, the above is a very crude version, but it suggests that the "where" would most likely be "in there" somewhere, with the search area shrinking towards Goulston street the longer you presume JtR stays inside cleaning up before he re-emerges.

I have a vague memory of having done a slightly better version, but it may be I was just planning on doing it and never got around to it.

- Jeff

hey jeff
interesting as usual. what the circle look like if we assumed he stayed at his bolt hole for 15 minutes.. to clean up, drop off goodies and knife and grab some chalk?

[Wickerman]

Interesting, this bit in the Times, of Oct 2nd, 1888, seems to suggest the idea that JtR may have gone "home" first and then come back out, although a bit later it also sounds like JtR discards the apron as he left the scene.

"...
It appears after perpetrating his foul work in Mitre-square the miscreant retraced his steps towards the scene of the crime which he had committed an hour or so earlier. As stated in the particulars given in The Times of yesterday, part of the attire of the unfortunate woman who was butchered in Mitre-square consisted of a portion of a coarse white apron, which was found loosely hanging about the neck. A piece of this apron had been torn away by the villain, who, in proceeding to his destination further east after leaving the City boundary, presumably used it to wipe his hands or his knife on, and then threw it away.
..."

Note, the first bolded sentence seems to be describing JtR coming back out to deposit the apron piece, while the 2nd (and underlined sentence), sounds more like they are suggesting he dropped it as he left the scene. Perhaps both ideas were being considered and were suggested to the reporter during their information gathering, and so the reporter wrote up their article reflecting those two possibilities?

- Jeff

Hi Jeff.

I must confess, I struggle to see that interpretation in the first bold sentence, also I wouldn't have thought the north end of Goulston St. was on the way to Berner St. either.

[Tom_Wescott]

Jeff,

I applaud your research regarding the Ripper's bolthole. It might be more useful if we could figure out how many minutes he might have had available to him and then subtract from there to tighten the radius. I agree he probably did not move in the direction of Berner Street until after all evidence was off his person.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

If Dr Phillips went to Commercial Street police station to pick up the apron piece, would that have been before or after DC Halse noticed the piece was missing from the apron when he was at the mortuary? He seems to suggest at the inquest that it was his own discovery at the mortuary which prompted him to return to Mitre Square. But if Dr Phillips had already gone to Commercial Street police station and then transferred the apron piece to Leman Street, would it not then already have been his discovery?

Why would DC Halse - or anyone else at the mortuary - not know Dr Phillips was already on the task of collecting the missing apron piece?

First of all we do not know at what point the Met. recognised the cloth was part of an apron, or whether it was related to any recent murder. I would presume the cloth was taken to HQ (Leman St.) because of the recent Stride murder, but we read Dr. Gordon-Brown had sent for Dr Phillips before they removed Eddowes from Mitre Sq., which must have been what prompted Phillips to take the cloth to Golden Lane that same morning.
We might assume Phillips was still at Leman St. because of his recent involvement in the Stride murder, where they received a request from Gordon-Brown for Phillips to attend.
I guess it was in the matching-up referred to by Gordon-Brown in his testimony that they finally realized this was a piece of apron.
Halse (accompanied by Hunt) must have missed Phillips who had already left Leman St. to take the piece of apron to Gordon-Brown, as they then proceeded to Goulston St.
Halse had recognised the apron worn by Eddowes had a portion missing before he heard of a piece of apron being found, this he only became aware of after leaving the mortuary when he arrived back at Mitre Sq.

[Wickerman]

If Dr Phillips went to Commercial Street police station to pick up the apron piece, would that have been before or after DC Halse noticed the piece was missing from the apron when he was at the mortuary? He seems to suggest at the inquest that it was his own discovery at the mortuary which prompted him to return to Mitre Square. But if Dr Phillips had already gone to Commercial Street police station and then transferred the apron piece to Leman Street, would it not then already have been his discovery?

Why would DC Halse - or anyone else at the mortuary - not know Dr Phillips was already on the task of collecting the missing apron piece?

Ah, let me correct my last post.
The report that covers this issue is in the 'Ultimate', I think I gave you the on-line version.
My hardback copy has a report by PC Long on pg. 190, where we read that PC Long had gone to "the Station", which would be Commercial St. Station, both he and the Inspector returned to Goulston St., presumably with the apron, then both he and the Inspector went to Leman St. where they handed the piece of apron to Dr Phillips.
He was the one who took it to Golden Lane.

[JeffHamm]

Interesting, this bit in the Times, of Oct 2nd, 1888, seems to suggest the idea that JtR may have gone "home" first and then come back out, although a bit later it also sounds like JtR discards the apron as he left the scene.

"...
It appears after perpetrating his foul work in Mitre-square the miscreant retraced his steps towards the scene of the crime which he had committed an hour or so earlier. As stated in the particulars given in The Times of yesterday, part of the attire of the unfortunate woman who was butchered in Mitre-square consisted of a portion of a coarse white apron, which was found loosely hanging about the neck. A piece of this apron had been torn away by the villain, who, in proceeding to his destination further east after leaving the City boundary, presumably used it to wipe his hands or his knife on, and then threw it away. It was picked up in Goulston-street very shortly after the second murder had been committed, and it was brought to the mortuary by Dr. Phillips soon after the body had been removed there. It was covered with blood, and was found to fit in with the portion of apron which had been left by the murderer on his victim. Goulston-street, it may be stated, is a broad thoroughfare running parallel with the Commercial-road and is off the main Whitechapel-road, and the spot where the piece of apron was picked up is about a third of a mile from Mitre-square. By the direct and open route it is 1,550 feet, but it can be approached through several small streets, making the distance about 1,600 feet. These measurements were taken yesterday.
..."

Note, the first bolded sentence seems to be describing JtR coming back out to deposit the apron piece, while the 2nd (and underlined sentence), sounds more like they are suggesting he dropped it as he left the scene. Perhaps both ideas were being considered and were suggested to the reporter during their information gathering, and so the reporter wrote up their article reflecting those two possibilities?

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Given the title of the thread (from Mitre Square to Goulston Street), why is so much discussion given to Jewish topics? Just because of one perceived word in the GSG. But what of the Ripper's travel from Mitre Square to Goulston Street? I personally don't think that occurred. I suspect he went somewhere else first and then reemerged with the apron and clean hands. But where?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom,

Ages ago I had a play with that sort of idea. It's a very simplistic analysis, and so results in a larger area than one would end up with if applying a more sophisticated approach, but it is probably good enough for general purposes.

What I did was take the time from the likely time JtR leaves Mitre Square (around the time PC Harvey patrols Church Passage, so around 1:41 ish type thing), and the time the apron piece is found in Goulston Street by PC Long. I then worked out the distance JtR could travel over that interval at a normal walking pace (3.2 mph). I start JtR at Mitre Square, head him out in all directions until he reaches a distance from Goulston Street that would require the remaining time for him to get there. All distances are just "as the crow flies", which of course overestimates how far he could actually get. Also, I didn't give him any time at his destination (the longer you presume JtR stays at his "bolt hole" to clean up, the smaller the area would get).

I just plotted a circle around Goulston street (the actual shape would be slightly oval) to crudely plot this maximum area, and it looks like this:



Basically, given the time between the murder and the discovery of the apron by PC Long, the range that JtR could cover to get to a bolt hole is pretty large.

If one believes Stride is a victim of JtR, then I think the locations near Berner Street can probably be considered less probable (I think one would expect him to go straight home at that point if he lived near Berner Street). It also seems to me (and this is of course pure speculation), that if his intention of going back out to drop the apron piece was to misdirect the police, then the vector from Mitre Square to Goulston would be one pointing in a wrong direction, but when he's come back out, he's also likely to want to avoid approaching Mitre Square, where he would expect police activity. As such, I tend to favour areas to the North or North West, but given that's all based upon speculating as to his decision making, I'm not suggesting anyone has to agree with me on that.

Of course, if one believes he spent a fair bit of time cleaning up before going out, the area shrinks accordingly. Coupled with my thinking above, I think the one "suspect" that it sort of fits with (and I'm not suspect oriented), is the Stake Out on Windsor Street mentioned in the Times on Oct 2nd ("...At about the time when the Mitre-square murder was being committed two of the extra men who had been put on duty were in Windsor-street, a thoroughfare about 300 yards off, engaged, pursuant to their instructions, in watching certain houses, it being thought possible that the premises might be resorted to at some time by the murderer....").

But, of course, that location was being watched at the time and nobody was seen entering/leaving that spot, so despite how it sort of fits with my impressions, it appears that's not it. Sigh.

Anyway, as I say, the above is a very crude version, but it suggests that the "where" would most likely be "in there" somewhere, with the search area shrinking towards Goulston street the longer you presume JtR stays inside cleaning up before he re-emerges.

I have a vague memory of having done a slightly better version, but it may be I was just planning on doing it and never got around to it.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

If Dr Phillips went to Commercial Street police station to pick up the apron piece, would that have been before or after DC Halse noticed the piece was missing from the apron when he was at the mortuary? He seems to suggest at the inquest that it was his own discovery at the mortuary which prompted him to return to Mitre Square. But if Dr Phillips had already gone to Commercial Street police station and then transferred the apron piece to Leman Street, would it not then already have been his discovery?

Why would DC Halse - or anyone else at the mortuary - not know Dr Phillips was already on the task of collecting the missing apron piece?

The evidence Halse gave was retrospective because Halse at the mortuary would not have known of the existence of the second piece of apron because it was still at Leman St police station.

This is a problem because when the body was stripped and the list of clothing and personal effects was drawn up the apron piece had not arrived at the mortuary at that time and had not arrived by 5.20am as there was a reporter camped outside of the mortuary and the two pieces could not have been matched until the next day.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[mpriestnall]

More like 'attempting' to establish it, since they were never able to reach a consensus. He must have been as perplexed as we are as to why no two people could read that sentence or remember it the same way, and the second word is the crux of the whole thing. If it even was a word, that is. We'll never know thanks to the "abundance of caution" on display that night. Man, I wish I had a photograph of that writing.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Thanks Tom.

I recently reread "They All Love Jack" and my question was prompted by Bruce Robinson's suggesting Crawford was aware of the j-word's masonic meaning and was trying to establish that was it's meaning. Best not go there again, I guess!

[Curious Cat]

If I recall correctly, Dr Phillips had something to do with it.
Phillips came to Commercial St. to pick up the piece of apron and take it to HQ (Leman St.), he was the person who subsequently took it to Golden Lane Mortuary where Dr Gordon-Brown was investigating the body of Eddowes.
It might take some time to locate the source, it's many years since I read this.

If Dr Phillips went to Commercial Street police station to pick up the apron piece, would that have been before or after DC Halse noticed the piece was missing from the apron when he was at the mortuary? He seems to suggest at the inquest that it was his own discovery at the mortuary which prompted him to return to Mitre Square. But if Dr Phillips had already gone to Commercial Street police station and then transferred the apron piece to Leman Street, would it not then already have been his discovery?

Why would DC Halse - or anyone else at the mortuary - not know Dr Phillips was already on the task of collecting the missing apron piece?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Because people would link it to the murderer. It could draw crowds of people and this would take man power to hold them back. Easier just to get rid of it.

I think you're explaining why you think Warren ordered the GSG to be erased, but I don't know which comment of mine you are responding to!

[Losmandris]

Please see my replies below.

Because people would link it to the murderer. It could draw crowds of people and this would take man power to hold them back. Easier just to get rid of it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It wouldn't surprise me if JtR had gone from perhaps spying on women when young, to physical abuse/attempted rapes etc. As he gets older his frustration and anger increases, meaning he can just stop a stranger like Annie Millwood and repeatedly stab her. If you look at Wilson, her attacker asked for money and when she refuses he stabbed her twice in the throat. To me that doesn't sound like the actions of a first time attacker - for someone to lash out like that as the first reaction. I would say the same about what happened to Smith.

The problem with suspects is pinpointing exactly where they were early on. We're getting off topic here but in terms of Bury I would have thought an interesting time to search might be around 1884 he was living as vagrant in Dewsbury. He was sleeping with a penknife under his pillow in Bow and you'd think being a vagrant might require some sort of self defence if necessary. He also caught an STD in the east end and living as a vagrant he might have been using prostitutes. He could blow up explosively and the combination of those three things, temper, potentially having a knife and using prostitutes...Also his time when younger in Wolverhampton. I suppose against that the 'profile' says these sorts of crimes often begin late twenties (Bury was 28/29 in the east end).

May if I get time I will have a look, though not sure where to start, probably local papers if online. Obviously the name bury wouldn't turn up or would be on the police files section of ancestry which I've checked, but unsolved nasty things may have happened where he was.

It's also one of the things I question about Lechmere. I have time for Lech as a suspect, but for someone who was a long-term resident of the area before and after 1888, I just struggle with the idea that someone of JTR's level of offending wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves at some point, before or after, or that they would just stop for that matter.

I’d suggest the best local newspaper would be the Express and Star Wulf. It’s still going.

[Aethelwulf]

I agree Wulf. We should wary of simply saying:” was Nichols really the first victim or might it have been Tabram,” when it could have been one of those that you’ve quoted or even a previously unmentioned one. It might be worth an effort for someone to check around my neck-of-the-woods to see if there were any similar unsolved attacks which might potentially be suggested as early efforts by Bury. This might already have been done but it might be an interesting exercise.

It wouldn't surprise me if JtR had gone from perhaps spying on women when young, to physical abuse/attempted rapes etc. As he gets older his frustration and anger increases, meaning he can just stop a stranger like Annie Millwood and repeatedly stab her. If you look at Wilson, her attacker asked for money and when she refuses he stabbed her twice in the throat. To me that doesn't sound like the actions of a first time attacker - for someone to lash out like that as the first reaction. I would say the same about what happened to Smith.

The problem with suspects is pinpointing exactly where they were early on. We're getting off topic here but in terms of Bury I would have thought an interesting time to search might be around 1884 he was living as vagrant in Dewsbury. He was sleeping with a penknife under his pillow in Bow and you'd think being a vagrant might require some sort of self defence if necessary. He also caught an STD in the east end and living as a vagrant he might have been using prostitutes. He could blow up explosively and the combination of those three things, temper, potentially having a knife and using prostitutes...Also his time when younger in Wolverhampton. I suppose against that the 'profile' says these sorts of crimes often begin late twenties (Bury was 28/29 in the east end).

May if I get time I will have a look, though not sure where to start, probably local papers if online. Obviously the name bury wouldn't turn up or would be on the police files section of ancestry which I've checked, but unsolved nasty things may have happened where he was.

It's also one of the things I question about Lechmere. I have time for Lech as a suspect, but for someone who was a long-term resident of the area before and after 1888, I just struggle with the idea that someone of JTR's level of offending wouldn't have drawn attention to themselves at some point, before or after, or that they would just stop for that matter.