Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Scott Nelson]

Again, this is the City of London Police's theory. I'm merely repeating it in lieu of finding that press report. Watkins testified at the inquest of seeing nothing out of the ordinary on his round prior to discovering the body, so I don't know what happened or what the Stephen White story was based on, if anything. The news report said it was calculated (by whom?) that seven minutes would have elapsed between Watkins leaving the square to his stepping aside to let a strange man pass around him at the St. James passage to Mitre Square.

Watkins may have briefly conversed with the firemen at the small station in the orange market, adding additional time to the alleged encounter.

[JeffHamm]

Yes Jeff, I agree with this, except for the entry to the Square through St. James passage. It would have been difficult to see around the square until they were at the narrow entry point into the square (where they may have been observed by anyone in the square), so entering through the wider Mitre Street side makes more sense (if they saw anyone walking around in the square, they could just continue walking up Mitre Street). More likely, to my way of thinking, is that Eddowes hooked up with the Ripper somewhere near Aldgate, then they were able to watch Watkins from behind.

This by the way, completely invalidates my earlier preferred witness, Joseph Hyam Levy, and the suspect by association, Jacob Levey (sorry Tracy!), but what do I know?

I'm looking for a newspaper report I read some time ago which outlined the City Police's theory of the events, with echoes of the Stephen White story (where it is Watkins, without naming him, who encountered a strange man emerging St. James Passage 7 minutes after he left Mitre Square prior to discovering the body

Yah, I think st James is difficult too. Can't rule out following PC Watkins, just can't find anything to point there either. Hmmmm, after 7 minutes he should be half way around his beat, so well passes at James passage I would think.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Yes Jeff, I agree with this, except for the entry to the Square through St. James passage. It would have been difficult to see around the square until they were at the narrow entry point into the square (where they may have been observed by anyone in the square), so entering through the wider Mitre Street side makes more sense (if they saw anyone walking around in the square, they could just continue walking up Mitre Street). More likely, to my way of thinking, is that Eddowes hooked up with the Ripper somewhere near Aldgate, then they were able to watch Watkins from behind.

This by the way, completely invalidates my earlier preferred witness, Joseph Hyam Levy, and the suspect by association, Jacob Levey (sorry Tracy!), but what do I know?

I'm looking for a newspaper report I read some time ago which outlined the City Police's theory of the events, with echoes of the Stephen White story (where it is Watkins, without naming him, who encountered a strange man emerging St. James Passage 7 minutes after he left Mitre Square prior to discovering the body

[JeffHamm]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

In some ways, it's simpler to analyse things if CPC are not Eddowes and JtR, because we have so few constraints to work with. What we know, is that Eddowes being released around 1:00 am gives her more than enough time to get to Mitre Square. If CPC is not her and JtR, then it seems highly unlikely for them to have entered through Church Passage, so must come through St. James Place, where we know there we "some people" from Blenkinsop's press statement, and we know he didn't take any notice of them, so it is possible there were male and female couples, but we don't know that for sure. He also seems to indicate nobody went into our out of Mitre Square, but again, his "didn't take any notice of them" suggests he wasn't paying that close attention, so maybe. But there's also the entrance from Mitre Street. We know PC Watkins patrolled up from Aldgate to Mitre Square just before 1:30, then Mitre Square at 1:30, and exited back onto Mitre Street and headed north. Eddowes and JtR would have to lag behind him enough not to be noticed as he doesn't report seeing anyone. So again, whether through St. James or Mtire Street, the earliest entry time is after PC Watkin's exits Mitre Square, so somewhere between 1:31 and 1:32 based upon his patrol speed. That's not much earlier, but it is a minute, than the earliest time one could get to for the CPC based upon Leve's estimate of waiting until 1:33 before moving on (but even Leve says 3-4 minutes, and Lawende estimated 5, so the safest bet there is probably 1:34).

Hmmm, I suppose if they entered through St. James, it might make more sense if JtR and Eddowes met as she came down Houndsditch and before she gets to St. Bolotoph's and they head over towards Mitre Square. An entrance through Mitre Street, though, could still have them meeting up at the Church, or further along on Aldgate.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

Well, if the CPC are not Eddowes and JtR then they could enter any time after 1:31 or 1:32, which is about the time Watkins would exit the square. My own thoughts, though, is that the rain which kept Lawende et Al at bay would also keep them out and seeking shelter until it passed, but not all agree with me. There's enough time for Eddowes to get to any of the entrances, so none can be conclusively excluded. There's just deminishing evidence available, but the CPC is not strongly enough evidence to be sure or confident that other possibilities can be excluded.

- Jeff

[Varqm]

Why? What tells you he was more than an occasional visitor?

I believe he was an occasional visitor by 1888.Also that he knew the place well and enough of what it was like in the early mornings.

[Scott Nelson]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

[JeffHamm]

Jeff,

I just find it totally fascinating how you deliver the timings involved, equally I am amazed how quickly went about his business

Thanks. Don't forget, though, the timings I present are of course estimations. So they shouldn't be viewed as carved in stone. I do think they are defendable as estimates, but don't misconstrue them as proof. It's not my intention to suggest they are "facts", just to be clear.
- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

Jeff,

I just find it totally fascinating how you deliver the timings involved, equally I am amazed how quickly went about his business

[JeffHamm]

I think he was incredibly efficient in his actions, ok not 100% with his methods, although it certainly appears he knew what he was after before the mutilation and the murder, 'tonight I'm going to get myself a kidney'.

With Kate I think he knew that he had to get move on; intestines over the shoulder and by her side were not by design, just simply getting them out the way and in his haste cut into one of them making a beeline for a kidney.

Once he got what he was after he was gone, into the shadows.

Hi Juniper4576,

If one believes he was after a uterus and kidney specifically, rather than just took bits "in the moment" (which was Dr. Sequeria's opinion, that he saw no evidence that JtR had specific designs on any of the organs taken), then it changes how one views what happened. Given the position of the kidney behind a membrain, though, does point to him probably knowing about that. But again, that could just mean he's cut up animals, so he knows the kidneys are behind a protective layer. Whether or not he had kidney as a before the fact objective is one of things we don't know for sure. He might have, or he might not have. Once you make a decision on that, you run the chance of having made the wrong one, so bear that in mind before convincing yourself too strongly one way or the other.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

I think he was incredibly efficient in his actions, ok not 100% with his methods, although it certainly appears he knew what he was after before the mutilation and the murder, 'tonight I'm going to get myself a kidney'.

With Kate I think he knew that he had to get move on; intestines over the shoulder and by her side were not by design, just simply getting them out the way and in his haste cut into one of them making a beeline for a kidney.

Once he got what he was after he was gone, into the shadows.

[JeffHamm]

Apparently strangulation to the point of unconsciousness doesn't take all that long, in the vicinity of 20-30 seconds, We also don't know for sure that JtR did strangle Eddowes, though the lack of noise is suggestive that he silenced her in some way.

I would suggest that definitely after the Chapman murder (if not the Nichols murder as well), JtR would almost certainly have used strangulation to quieten the victims. I actually don't know for certain if this method is established in any of the post mortems - but my understanding is Chapman showed obvious signs of strangulation before she was ripped. Strangulation offers the Ripper more control over his victim. If he slashed their throats, they would surely have reeled around in panic and left considerable blood spray, been difficult to control. Therefore he must have been highly adept at quick strangulation to subdue them first. I think also the lack of excessive bleeding from the neck wounds confirms they had to have been near death at least before the cut.

Unconsciousness would really have to be achieved in a very short time, as you say '20-30 seconds'. Still, something seems off. In a location like Mitre Square, you're likely to have a natural echo where every little sound is amplified. Surely with residents, night watchmen so near, it's not possible to carry out such an act with no sound at all while hurrying in the darkness.


If Leve's time is right, we have an additional 2 minutes, and if PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, that's another minute (now up to 9 minutes availabe), and if the crime required closer to 3 minutes than 5, then it's easier to fit it in, etc.

It does raise the eternal question of whether the murderer had anatomical knowledge or not when you really look at how quickly and quietly he was able to strangle, cut and remove internal organs in the dark in such a short space of time. It's probably been discussed to death, but there is something remarkable about JtR's apparent ease in achieving his ends.

Yes, the lack of anybody hearing a struggle at any of the crime scenes is one of the mysteries. The one exception being the cry of "Murder" reported with regards to Kelly and I suppose Schwart's report that Stride called out 3 times, if not very loudly - but nobody else reports hearing anything even in that case. As for anatomical knowledge, the medical people at the time were of various opinions, ranging from knowledge of medical procedures (Chapman) to familiarity of cutting up animals (Dr. Brown for Eddowes) to no knowledge at all (Dr. Sequeria and Eddowes), so take your pick.

But yes, it does appear the victims had to have been silenced in some way, and overpowered very quickly. How that was done is not known for sure, but everything points to that being achieved.

- Jeff

[Meet Ze Monster]

Apparently strangulation to the point of unconsciousness doesn't take all that long, in the vicinity of 20-30 seconds, We also don't know for sure that JtR did strangle Eddowes, though the lack of noise is suggestive that he silenced her in some way.

I would suggest that definitely after the Chapman murder (if not the Nichols murder as well), JtR would almost certainly have used strangulation to quieten the victims. I actually don't know for certain if this method is established in any of the post mortems - but my understanding is Chapman showed obvious signs of strangulation before she was ripped. Strangulation offers the Ripper more control over his victim. If he slashed their throats, they would surely have reeled around in panic and left considerable blood spray, been difficult to control. Therefore he must have been highly adept at quick strangulation to subdue them first. I think also the lack of excessive bleeding from the neck wounds confirms they had to have been near death at least before the cut.

Unconsciousness would really have to be achieved in a very short time, as you say '20-30 seconds'. Still, something seems off. In a location like Mitre Square, you're likely to have a natural echo where every little sound is amplified. Surely with residents, night watchmen so near, it's not possible to carry out such an act with no sound at all while hurrying in the darkness.


If Leve's time is right, we have an additional 2 minutes, and if PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, that's another minute (now up to 9 minutes availabe), and if the crime required closer to 3 minutes than 5, then it's easier to fit it in, etc.

It does raise the eternal question of whether the murderer had anatomical knowledge or not when you really look at how quickly and quietly he was able to strangle, cut and remove internal organs in the dark in such a short space of time. It's probably been discussed to death, but there is something remarkable about JtR's apparent ease in achieving his ends.

[JeffHamm]

We will agree to disagree on the time they had in the square, because even on your figures the later they entered the square the less time the killer would have had in the square with the victim.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

No worries. As you say, neither of us knows when they entered, so neither of us knows how much time they had. All we know is how much time was available to be had, which is not the same thing as knowing how much of that time was actually used.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks. Indeed, we don't know when the CPC left their location, or even if they are Eddowes and JtR in the first place! Obviously if they were not Eddowes and JtR, then it doesn't matter when they left. But, since we don't know what time they left, all we can do is determine if there was sufficient time available to make it possible, and there is, even in the most restrictive reading of the testimony. As such, they remain worthy of consideration, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't explore other ideas as well.

- Jeff

We will agree to disagree on the time they had in the square, because even on your figures the later they entered the square the less time the killer would have had in the square with the victim.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk