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Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

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  • Curious Cat
    replied
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post

    Pall Mall Gazette
    2 October 1888

    In connection with the Mitre-square murder a startling discovery was made. Sergeant Dudman had his attention drawn to 36, Mitre-street a house a short distance from the spot where the murdered woman was found, and there he found what appeared to be bloodstains upon the doorway and underneath the window, as if a person had wiped his finger on the windowledge and draw a blood-stained knife down part of the doorway. Mr Hartig, who lives on the premises, said he had only just noticed the stains, and then quite by accident.
    Thank you for the snippet. Again, very interesting.

    Presuming these stains were left by the killer upon leaving the murder scene, it shows an instinctive move to go southwards out of Mitre Square. That the killer takes a diagonal stride to the opposite side of the street rather than a straight left turn down suggests that passage way is the intended destination. I see no reason for the killer not to take cover there until PC Watkins had rounded the corner from Leadenhall Street into Mitre Street, emerging on the Leadenhall Street side before PC Watkins has even reached Mitre Square.

    I do wonder if the Aldgate pump, just by the corner, was checked at the time for blood stains or just in general. The killer may have used it quickly to wash their hands or other items, the knife for instance.

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  • packers stem
    replied
    Not really Jeff
    I just don't think he thought it out properly .
    Not a lie in the true sense of the word ,just a throw away comment.
    He said it in the same sentence as his mention of knowing the area .
    I just don't think he realised the importance of presuming the lighting was the same there every night ,which we must surely all agree , it could not possibly be

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post

    Hi Jeff

    You are presuming that Sequeira would stand there staring at the corner after examing whilst the officers were turned away
    Hard to see why on earth he would do that .
    I would suggest once examination was done they would just be chatting , looking for blood spurts , spots etc etc . With lamps and Sequeira lol
    I only think that Halse asked for the lighting to be redirected as on hearing Halse , Marriott ,Outram run into the square , the PC's would have directed their light their way and or towards himself when they were chatting
    That's the way I see it .
    None of which is provable of course
    Which means you're assuming that he lied when he said there was sufficient light for JtR to do what he did, despite the fact that he was there, despite the fact that there is testimony that indicates he had the opportunity to make the very observation he testified under oath, and despite the fact that even in the dark one can see things right in front of them.

    All I'm assuming is that someone who was there to examine the body at the crime scene, who had an opportunity to make a trivial observation that they testified to, actually observed what they claimed. In other words, I'm just looking at the information we have and noting that it doesn't contradict itself and so I have no basis to consider it inaccurate. You are assuming that despite the testimony all being consistent, it is inaccurate anyway.

    Otherwise, we might as well just ignore all the testimony when it suits us. I find that approach unhelpful in trying to understand what happened. And without first understanding what happened, and the basic circumstances under which it happened, there's no hope of making any inferences beyond that.

    - Jeff

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  • packers stem
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi packers stem,



    Ok, clearly the lamps were required to provide sufficient lighting for medical and police to examine the scene. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, when Dr. Sequeira arrived, he would have examined the body, which required the lights to be shown upon it. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, when Halse arrived later, he requested the lights to be directed at the body so he could examine the crime scene. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, if Halse had to ask for the lights to be shown upon the body, they were not at the time he arrived. That we agree upon.

    Therefore, between Dr. Sequeira's arrival, and PC Halise's arrival, there was a period when the crime scene was not illuminated by the lamps. This follows from the fact that PC Halse had to request lighting.

    And therefore, Dr. Sequeira had an opportunity to assess the lighting conditions.

    And his assessment was that JtR would have had sufficient light for JtR's purposes, even though those lighting conditions were not sufficient for Dr. Squeira's or PC Halse's purposes.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff

    You are presuming that Sequeira would stand there staring at the corner after examing whilst the officers were turned away
    Hard to see why on earth he would do that .
    I would suggest once examination was done they would just be chatting , looking for blood spurts , spots etc etc . With lamps and Sequeira lol
    I only think that Halse asked for the lighting to be redirected as on hearing Halse , Marriott ,Outram run into the square , the PC's would have directed their light their way and or towards himself when they were chatting
    That's the way I see it .
    None of which is provable of course
    Last edited by packers stem; 06-17-2019, 10:34 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post

    No Jeff
    I'm not saying that and never have .
    We don't disagree on that point .You've got mixed up .I thought I'd made that point clear .
    I really don't know why you keep saying this .
    You said in the comment I reposted that Sequeira asked for light , I said it was Halse not Sequeira that ASKED for light .
    You are trying to make an argument around a point we actually agree on and for the life of me i can't understand why .
    I never claimed Sequeira ASKED for light , you did , all I did was ask you if you had any evidence of this request .



    It's always been my stance for crying out loud
    but as regards sufficient light without lamps ? no , of course not .

    Sufficient light when the lamps ,which hopefully we can finally agree, were likely to be directed toward the body on Sequeira's arrival ...... yes ?

    Sufficient light with lamps , or without lamps are two different questions don't you agree

    Police lamps = sufficient lighting
    No Lamps = insufficient

    That's my opinion
    It's NEVER varied
    It never will

    It's clear we're never going to agree
    But that's life
    [/QUOTE]

    Ok, clearly the lamps were required to provide sufficient lighting for medical and police to examine the scene. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, when Dr. Sequeira arrived, he would have examined the body, which required the lights to be shown upon it. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, when Halse arrived later, he requested the lights to be directed at the body so he could examine the crime scene. That we agree upon.
    Clearly, if Halse had to ask for the lights to be shown upon the body, they were not at the time he arrived. That we agree upon.

    Therefore, between Dr. Sequeira's arrival, and PC Halise's arrival, there was a period when the crime scene was not illuminated by the lamps. This follows from the fact that PC Halse had to request lighting.

    And therefore, Dr. Sequeira had an opportunity to assess the lighting conditions.

    And his assessment was that JtR would have had sufficient light for JtR's purposes, even though those lighting conditions were not sufficient for Dr. Squeira's or PC Halse's purposes.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • packers stem
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi packers stem,


    As I said, there is no recorded testimony of him asking, but it is clear that when he checked the body the lights would have been shown on the body to assist them. By his request, either spoken or assumed, given it would be necessary. You have been arguing that things not stated didn't happen. You're now switching who has made which claim.
    No Jeff
    I'm not saying that and never have .
    We don't disagree on that point .You've got mixed up .I thought I'd made that point clear .
    I really don't know why you keep saying this .
    You said in the comment I reposted that Sequeira asked for light , I said it was Halse not Sequeira that ASKED for light .
    You are trying to make an argument around a point we actually agree on and for the life of me i can't understand why .
    I never claimed Sequeira ASKED for light , you did , all I did was ask you if you had any evidence of this request .

    Thank you for repeating back to me exactly what I have been saying all along and which you have been arguing against, but now you try and present it as your stance. I'm assuming you now agree with me that Dr. Sequeira's claim that the light was sufficient is valid.
    It's always been my stance for crying out loud
    but as regards sufficient light without lamps ? no , of course not .

    Sufficient light when the lamps ,which hopefully we can finally agree, were likely to be directed toward the body on Sequeira's arrival ...... yes ?

    Sufficient light with lamps , or without lamps are two different questions don't you agree

    Police lamps = sufficient lighting
    No Lamps = insufficient

    That's my opinion
    It's NEVER varied
    It never will

    It's clear we're never going to agree
    But that's life

    [/QUOTE]

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post

    Hi Jeff
    Seems you are getting a little confused .
    It was HALSE who asked for the light to be shone
    I quoted the relevant part of the testimony in response to you telling me that Sequeira asked them to point their lamps at the body .There is no evidence of this claim of yours I post 652 and that's why i asked you to post evidence of your claim .
    As I said, there is no recorded testimony of him asking, but it is clear that when he checked the body the lights would have been shown on the body to assist them. By his request, either spoken or assumed, given it would be necessary. You have been arguing that things not stated didn't happen. You're now switching who has made which claim.
    Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.
    Thank you for repeating back to me exactly what I have been saying all along and which you have been arguing against, but now you try and present it as your stance. I'm assuming you now agree with me that Dr. Sequeira's claim that the light was sufficient is valid.


    Halse arrived some ten minutes after Sequeira
    Yes, as I said above, though I didn't state 10 minutes, just said he arrived later.

    You seem to be attempting to cloud issues by mentioning the Watkins inquest and the FACT that if Watkins was correct then Harvey was not present .
    This has no bearing on whether or not Sequeira could see in the dark .
    No, I'm mentioning Watkins as an example of the approach you've used in this issue. And now you're trying to create role reversal. You are now arguing what I've been saying all along, so at least that means we finally agree that it was a trivial matter for Dr. Sequeira to assess the light levels at the scene of the crime, a claim you've been saying was impossible up until this post.
    So you see, it's not my approach that keeps switching at all .
    Enjoy your evening
    You too. Actually, it's now morning here. Hopefully there will be sun.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • packers stem
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi packers stem,



    Of course I do. But you've been the one asking for evidence in testimony that this was done. I can't do that, and so, based upon your line of reasoning that should mean you don't believe it was done (just like you don't believe PC Harvey and PC Holland both showed up together, piror to which PC Watkins was alone, and then PC Holland went off to get Dr. Sequeira because PC Watkins didn't mention PC Harvey's arrival. And that despite both PC Harvey and Morris both testifying that was the order of things. But now, you are applying the exact opposite tactic.


    So did I, and so do I. And I know that one can still see things that are right in front of you, as Eddowes would be when JtR was mutilating her. Yes, things get harder to see at a greater distance, but JtR wasn't 10 feet away.

    I'm not, I'm simply following your line of argument. I'm quite sure he requested the lights to be employed when he did his examination. You are the one who claims that absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence - at least when it comes to PC Harvey. You've rejected all arguments to the contrary despite there even being evidence that PC Harvey and PC Holland arrived together to find a solitary PC Watkins. So I'm using your form of reasoning here. But Halse's request does point to the fact that the lights were not always focused on the body, once again demonstrating that Dr. Sequeira had an opportunity to observe the lighting - why that needs such an awful amount of explanation is because you keep swithcing how you employ the evidence to make claims in order to make it sound like things are consistent with your overall theory. What I'm demonstrating above is how, when your approach is used consistently, it fails to produce a coherent picture of the events.

    All I've suggested with regards to Dr. Sequeira's comment that there was sufficient light for JtR to do what he did is point out that someone at the scene is capable of making that decision. You've argued that you know better and that the body was constantly lit up, and he couldn't possibly know (but apparently you can). What we see, though, is that Dr. Sequeira arrived when there were few people (PC Watkins, Havey, Holland, and Morris). He would have examined the scene (lit up to make observations of the body), and we know that it was not lit up at some point as Halse had to request lighting for him to do his own inspection of the crime scene. There was lots of opportunity for Dr. Sequeira to make his observation, yet you've argued that because it is not stated directly somewhere (other than Dr. Sequeira's observation itself of course), that we can't assume it happened despite the obviously simple ways in which such an observation could be made. So, again, by your criterion, we have no direct testimony that Dr. Sequeira had lights on the body, and we do have a later request for lights, your approach should be to argue he did it all int he dark (so I suppose you could question the reliability of his crime scene comments).

    So no, it's you who has to justify your lines of reasoning, and why your approach changes whenever it starts to interfere with the explanation you've offered.

    - Jeff


    Hi Jeff
    Seems you are getting a little confused .
    It was HALSE who asked for the light to be shone
    I quoted the relevant part of the testimony in response to you telling me that Sequeira asked them to point their lamps at the body .There is no evidence of this claim of yours I post 652 and that's why i asked you to post evidence of your claim .

    Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.

    Halse arrived some ten minutes after Sequeira

    You seem to be attempting to cloud issues by mentioning the Watkins inquest and the FACT that if Watkins was correct then Harvey was not present .
    This has no bearing on whether or not Sequeira could see in the dark .

    So you see, it's not my approach that keeps switching at all .
    Enjoy your evening

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    ...Dr. Sequeira is entirely able to inform us that there was sufficient light in the area without lamps being shone on the body.
    Moreover, Sequeira lived nearby and was familiar with the locale.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post

    Jeff
    if you really want to believe that the officers did not shine their lanterns into that corner for Sequeira to carry out an examination and check the blood and blood vessels then there is nothing I will be able to say to change your mind .
    Of course I do. But you've been the one asking for evidence in testimony that this was done. I can't do that, and so, based upon your line of reasoning that should mean you don't believe it was done (just like you don't believe PC Harvey and PC Holland both showed up together, piror to which PC Watkins was alone, and then PC Holland went off to get Dr. Sequeira because PC Watkins didn't mention PC Harvey's arrival. And that despite both PC Harvey and Morris both testifying that was the order of things. But now, you are applying the exact opposite tactic.

    I grew up in the country , walking home through fields and along public footpaths .... I know what real dark is when there's no moonlight and heavy cloud cover .
    It's up to you what you believe
    So did I, and so do I. And I know that one can still see things that are right in front of you, as Eddowes would be when JtR was mutilating her. Yes, things get harder to see at a greater distance, but JtR wasn't 10 feet away.
    I'm just stunned that you're trying to convince anyone that Sequeira wasn't aided by the light of the coppers standing next to him .
    I'll leave you with your thoughts
    I'm not, I'm simply following your line of argument. I'm quite sure he requested the lights to be employed when he did his examination. You are the one who claims that absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence - at least when it comes to PC Harvey. You've rejected all arguments to the contrary despite there even being evidence that PC Harvey and PC Holland arrived together to find a solitary PC Watkins. So I'm using your form of reasoning here. But Halse's request does point to the fact that the lights were not always focused on the body, once again demonstrating that Dr. Sequeira had an opportunity to observe the lighting - why that needs such an awful amount of explanation is because you keep swithcing how you employ the evidence to make claims in order to make it sound like things are consistent with your overall theory. What I'm demonstrating above is how, when your approach is used consistently, it fails to produce a coherent picture of the events.

    All I've suggested with regards to Dr. Sequeira's comment that there was sufficient light for JtR to do what he did is point out that someone at the scene is capable of making that decision. You've argued that you know better and that the body was constantly lit up, and he couldn't possibly know (but apparently you can). What we see, though, is that Dr. Sequeira arrived when there were few people (PC Watkins, Havey, Holland, and Morris). He would have examined the scene (lit up to make observations of the body), and we know that it was not lit up at some point as Halse had to request lighting for him to do his own inspection of the crime scene. There was lots of opportunity for Dr. Sequeira to make his observation, yet you've argued that because it is not stated directly somewhere (other than Dr. Sequeira's observation itself of course), that we can't assume it happened despite the obviously simple ways in which such an observation could be made. So, again, by your criterion, we have no direct testimony that Dr. Sequeira had lights on the body, and we do have a later request for lights, your approach should be to argue he did it all int he dark (so I suppose you could question the reliability of his crime scene comments).

    So no, it's you who has to justify your lines of reasoning, and why your approach changes whenever it starts to interfere with the explanation you've offered.

    - Jeff



    Leave a comment:


  • packers stem
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    Hi packers stem,



    Halse arrived after Dr. Sequeira. So, if Halse had to ask for the lights to be turned on the crime scene after Dr. Sequeira was there, what does that tell you about Dr. Sequeira's experience with the lighting conditions?

    And no, Halse doesn't need to the lamps in order to determine there's a body, but he will want to see the details because he's a police officer who will need to report upon them. It was dark, light makes it easier to see and get the fine details. JtR doesn't need fine details and wasn't examining the scene, he was working in haste with no regard for excess damage, etc. They are not in a cave, there is sufficient light to see at night, even when it's cloudy. You're presentation makes it sound like you think that when the lamps were turned off it was equivalent to putting blindfolds on.

    And, you're the one who keeps saying that Sequeira can't tell us that there was sufficient light because there were lights to be directed at the body. But you're right, I can't think of any testimony where he asks for light, though I suspect he did, but at the moment I can't think of anywhere where such a request by Dr. Sequeira is recorded. But, given Halse asked for light and he arrived after Dr. Sequeira, then I think it is up to you to provide evidence that he did, otherwise, all we have is someone who arrived after Dr. Sequeira asking for light, which means Dr. Sequeira is entirely able to inform us that there was sufficient light in the area without lamps being shone on the body.

    - Jeff
    Jeff
    if you really want to believe that the officers did not shine their lanterns into that corner for Sequeira to carry out an examination and check the blood and blood vessels then there is nothing I will be able to say to change your mind .
    I grew up in the country , walking home through fields and along public footpaths .... I know what real dark is when there's no moonlight and heavy cloud cover .
    It's up to you what you believe
    I'm just stunned that you're trying to convince anyone that Sequeira wasn't aided by the light of the coppers standing next to him .
    I'll leave you with your thoughts

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post
    Hi Jeff

    it was not a deliberate attempt to confuse anything .
    I'm unaware of any mention by Sequeira of asking for the light to be shone on the body .
    If you find it please post it here .... thanks in advance .
    Halse did , he wanted to confirm that there was indeed a murder victim on the ground .

    I would like to believe that Holland ,Watkins and probably Morris decided to ignore that Dr Sequeira wanted to check blood vessels etc without light , I really would but silly me , I keep suspecting that when the good doctor was knelt over the body they would take it upon themselves to shine the lamps for him .
    Maybe when he arrived they just turned them off and turned them back on only when Halse questioned them as to the location of the body

    Morning Advertiser 12th


    For how long do you think the life would have been extinct? - I arrived at that in a very few minutes. Probably not more than a quarter of an hour. I could tell from the condition of the blood and the blood vessels.
    Halse arrived after Dr. Sequeira. So, if Halse had to ask for the lights to be turned on the crime scene after Dr. Sequeira was there, what does that tell you about Dr. Sequeira's experience with the lighting conditions?

    And no, Halse doesn't need to the lamps in order to determine there's a body, but he will want to see the details because he's a police officer who will need to report upon them. It was dark, light makes it easier to see and get the fine details. JtR doesn't need fine details and wasn't examining the scene, he was working in haste with no regard for excess damage, etc. They are not in a cave, there is sufficient light to see at night, even when it's cloudy. You're presentation makes it sound like you think that when the lamps were turned off it was equivalent to putting blindfolds on.

    And, you're the one who keeps saying that Sequeira can't tell us that there was sufficient light because there were lights to be directed at the body. But you're right, I can't think of any testimony where he asks for light, though I suspect he did, but at the moment I can't think of anywhere where such a request by Dr. Sequeira is recorded. But, given Halse asked for light and he arrived after Dr. Sequeira, then I think it is up to you to provide evidence that he did, otherwise, all we have is someone who arrived after Dr. Sequeira asking for light, which means Dr. Sequeira is entirely able to inform us that there was sufficient light in the area without lamps being shone on the body.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    Cheers. Is that from a newspaper report or official testimony? I haven't got my books at the mo so can't find it myself.
    It's carried by some provincial newspapers' coverage of the inquest, e.g. the Birmingham Daily Post and the Sheffield & Rotherham Independent, on 5th October 1888.

    Leave a comment:


  • packers stem
    replied
    Hi Jeff

    it was not a deliberate attempt to confuse anything .
    I'm unaware of any mention by Sequeira of asking for the light to be shone on the body .
    If you find it please post it here .... thanks in advance .
    Halse did , he wanted to confirm that there was indeed a murder victim on the ground .

    I would like to believe that Holland ,Watkins and probably Morris decided to ignore that Dr Sequeira wanted to check blood vessels etc without light , I really would but silly me , I keep suspecting that when the good doctor was knelt over the body they would take it upon themselves to shine the lamps for him .
    Maybe when he arrived they just turned them off and turned them back on only when Halse questioned them as to the location of the body

    Morning Advertiser 12th


    For how long do you think the life would have been extinct? - I arrived at that in a very few minutes. Probably not more than a quarter of an hour. I could tell from the condition of the blood and the blood vessels.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Hi packers stem,

    Originally posted by packers stem View Post

    Jeff
    You are talking about Halse saying he asked Watkins to turn his light onto the body .....
    so that he could see the body .
    Halse arrived on the scene a good ten minutes after Sequeira
    This will be because , as a detective , he didn't have a lamp to shine so he could see the body .
    it's ridiculous to think that Watkins lamp and eyes would have been fixed on the body from 1.44 until 2.05

    Once Sequiera had examined the body the chances are they would turn away and talk about the circumstances with Holland rather than stare at a harrowing sight any longer than necessary

    Morning advertiser 12th

    "I had the light of Watkins turned on the body, and saw that it was a murder"

    So Halse needed Watkins light just to confirm there was actually a murdered body there .Never mind cutting kidneys out !

    It would be foolish to surmise that Watkins didn't do precisely the same for Sequeira .
    I'm not sure what your point is

    You really need to keep track of the conversation and not just react in away that tries to deflect.
    To make it easy, I値l put it all here, take particular note of post 651, by you, which started this recent discussion:
    --------------------
    You: post 651
    Evening Jeff

    Oh you can be quite sure that the lamps of Watkins, Holland and possibly Morris would have been trained on the body whilst Sequeira was checking for life .
    Why you would think otherwise is beyond me .
    --------------------
    Meost 652
    Yes, they would. As Joshua pointed out, he asked them too. Which means they weren't shining their lights on the body before that, which in turn means it's a trivial matter for him to have noted how much light there was at the time.
    ----------------------------
    You: Post 656
    It is the normal procedure isn't it Michael
    However bizarre it may appear to us , they have to pronounce life extinct .
    Just as at the inquests they confirm that the wounds could not be self inflicted
    ---------------------------
    Me: Post 657
    A technicality, and not one that required any additional light, which is what you were implying the light request was for.
    ---------------------------
    You: Post 658
    Jeff
    You are talking about Halse saying he asked Watkins to turn his light onto the body .....
    so that he could see the body .
    Halse arrived on the scene a good ten minutes after Sequeira
    --------------------------
    So no, I知 not talking about Halse asking to look at the body, I知 talking about your original claim that Sequeira needed the lights to check for signs of life. I pointed out he requested the lights, meaning they were not originally on the body, so he could easily have assessed the lighting conditions. Also, I pointed out that checking for signs of life in this case is absurd, and a technical requirement that medical personelle officially declare life extinct. Trying to now say I知 off base and claim I知 talking about something I致e never mentioned (Halse) is a rhetorical ploy and an attempt to confuse and misdirect rather than accept it is your claim of the lighting that is under evaluation.
    But nice try.
    - Jeff

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