Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[JeffHamm]

Even cramped is sufficent to cast a major doubt

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

There's always the need to doubt any interpretation because in order to interpret we have to fill in ideas we cannot prove. But, given that the most restrictive reading of the testimonies is not sufficient to rule it out, then it remains a viable option that has to be considered.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi all,

Ok, I've just been pondering some ideas and thought it might be time to share them. What I'll present below involves a fair bit of "filling in the blanks" about Eddowes' movements. Also, for the sake of this post, I'm considering the Church Passage Couple to be Eddowes and JtR, but I want to emphasize that is by no means a sure thing. Rather, I'm just seeing how things looks if we start with that. Also, I'm doing the same when I suggest Eddowes was headed to St. Bolotph's Church and meets JtR there. It's just a speculative idea and I want to see what happens if we consider it as a possibility. Finally, while the times and speeds I present will look very specific, that's just because maths will do that. Obviously, there are margins of error to consider, so don't put too much into the seconds portions of the times, I'm just presenting the math results, and can't be bothered to round to nearest minutes, etc. Reality has more variability than maths, so if you get easily offended by overly precise numbers being presented, I suggest you skip this post. And I repeat, they are only that precise because I can't be bothered rounding.

Finally, and to repeat myself, I'm not saying the following is proof of what happened, rather, it's just an examination to see if the following was possible.

So, to start, I've been having a bit of a look at PC Watkin's and PC Harvey's beats and their testimonies.

Here's PC Watkin's beat:

And he testifies that normally takes him between 12 and 14 minutes to complete. At the time, the regulation patrol speed was 2.5 mph (which works out to be 220 feet per minute). To complete that beat (2760 feet) in 12 minutes would be a patrol speed of 2.61 mph (235 feet/minute) and 14 minutes equates to 2.24 mph (197 feet/minute). Effectively, that looks like PC Watkins patrolling around the regulated speed with an acceptable range in variation. For the patrol we're most interested in, he took 14 minutes, so that patrol was on the slow side, but not so much that he's really off the target speed.

PC Harvey's beat was this:

And at 2.5 mph, that should take 13 minutes 4 seconds to complete. However, PC Harvey testifies he checked his time at the post office (just under the / in the yellow box) at 1:28, and when he heard Morris' whistle (1:44 ish), he had just reached Mitre Street and was heading back towards Duke Street. That's 16 minutes, and he's not completed a full circuit yet (he had only covered roughly 2668 feet in 16 minutes, which makes for a patrol speed of 1.89 mph, or 166 feet/min). This is a bit on the slow side. Also, he testifies that he had patrolled Church Passage about 3 or 4 minutes prior to hearing the whistle, and from the Mitre Square end of Church Passage to just after rounding at Mitre Street, is about 525 feet. At 1.89 mph, that would require 3 minutes 9 seconds, which fits with his testimony well enough (obviously, if I measure from when he enters Church Passage it means a bit more distance, and therefore time, and if he was a bit further along Aldgate towards Duke from where I chose, that also adds a bit of time, etc), but in the end, what we get is PC Harvey in the vicinity of where he testifies and at about the time he says he got there. At that speed, what should take about 13 minutes would take 17 minutes and 18 seconds.

Now, Eddowes had been realsed from the police around 1:00 am, and was seen heading towards Houndsditch (though we don't know for sure if she went down Houndsditch, let's work with the idea she did, and ends up at St. Botolph's Church, known as the prostitutes' church as they walked around it looking for customers).

That would be the following route:

And at an average walking speed (3.1 mph, or 273 feet/min), that would take her 7 minutes 11 seconds. At a patrol speed (2.5 mph) that would be 8 minutes 55 seconds. That means, if that was where she was heading when she left the police station, should would arrive somewhere around 1:10 if she went there directly. That's 18 minutes prior to PC Harvey's check at the post office clock, and if his previous circuit was also at the slow end, he's in the vicinity of the post office when Eddowes would have arrived. If she doesn't arrive until later, that just means PC Harvey would be going up Houndsditch as she was coming down. In other words, there seems to be a good chance that PC Harvey may have encountered Eddowes, at least in passing on Houndsditch. He doesn't, however, ever testify to seeing her, and that should be kept in mind here (as in Eddowes may have headed over to Bevis Mark and took up a position at Church Passage rather than continue down Houndsditch to St. Botolph's Church).

Now, that aside, the distance from the church to the entrance of Church Passage is about 380 feet, which at an average walking pace would take 1 minute 24 seconds to traverse. PC Harvey testifies he saw no suspicious characters on his patrol, so we know the Church Passage Couple wasn't there on his pass prior to 1:28, nor were they there when he later patrols at 1:41. It's also very close to a reasonable location to consider Eddowes being, and where she might have encountered JtR. If they headed that way just after PC Harvey passed the post office, they would reach Church Passage just before Lawende et al get up to leave the club, being in position to be spotted as they waited out the rain for 3-5 minutes.

From the Duke Street end of Church Passage to the crime scene is a distance of about 150 feet, and at an average walking pace, that takes 33 seconds to traverse. Using the latest sighting of the CPC (1:35) means the earliest time they could reach the crime location is 1:35:33 (please excuse how precise these numbers are, I'll let you round them as you see fit), which is 5 minutes and 27 seconds before the earliest time that PC Harvey patrols Church Passage and most likely JtR freezes and leaves at that time.

At 1:41 - 1:42, based upon his patrol speed, we can estimate where PC Watkins was, which is here:

And as we can see, if JtR were to flee out into Mitre Street and head north, he'll be out of view of PC Watkins by the time he rounds into the bottom of Mitre Street.

We have Blenkinsop's testimony that there were "people about" in St. James Place, so it is possible JtR went north and out through there, though that feels a bit odd to me. He would be circling the area of the crime, which doesn't put distance between himself and the danger zone.

Rather, if Watkins was at the 1:41 position, then the distance to the bottom of Mitre Street is 337 feet, which at 2.24 mph (his patrol speed) would require 1 minute 42 seconds. And if JtR leaves Mitre Square at no more than an average walking speed (3.1 mph), by the time PC Watkins rounds into Mitre Street (blue dot), JtR could get to roughly here (red dot):

Obviously, he could make other turns and such, but this route is directly away from the crime scene and is avoiding populated areas, like St. James Place.

Anyway, as I say, there are lots of unproven points in this, and I'm not saying all of this must have happened. But, it is one possible scenerio that fits much of the testimony. My biggest concern is that PC Harvey and Eddowes would have crossed paths, and I would think PC Harvey would have taken note, either of her coming down Houndsditch, or if he saw her in the company of a man around the Church (around 1:28). Those are, of course, the most speculative ideas in this, so feel free to disregard if it's just a bit too much.

But, with regards to the topic of this thread (Jack's escape), over the course of this discussion I've become much more in favour of out through Mitre Street then north.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff
Excellent analysis but of course the stumbling block is not knowing what time the couple left the location where they were seen standing to enter the square it could have been 1.36/1.37. or as late as 1.38 any of thse times would effect the time the killer would have had with the victim in Mitre Square.

I concur with you that the killer was disturbed by Pc harvey coming dwn the passage, the killer would have been able to see and hear him coming long before Harvey would have been able to see into the square, and i belive like you he headed north

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
Excellent analysis but of course the stumbling block is not knowing what time the couple left the location where they were seen standing to enter the square it could have been 1.36/1.37. or as late as 1.38 any of thse times would effect the time the killer would have had with the victim in Mitre Square.

I concur with you that the killer was disturbed by Pc harvey coming dwn the passage, the killer would have been able to see and hear him coming long before Harvey would have been able to see into the square, and i belive like you he headed north

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Thanks. Indeed, we don't know when the CPC left their location, or even if they are Eddowes and JtR in the first place! Obviously if they were not Eddowes and JtR, then it doesn't matter when they left. But, since we don't know what time they left, all we can do is determine if there was sufficient time available to make it possible, and there is, even in the most restrictive reading of the testimony. As such, they remain worthy of consideration, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't explore other ideas as well.

- Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

Thanks. Indeed, we don't know when the CPC left their location, or even if they are Eddowes and JtR in the first place! Obviously if they were not Eddowes and JtR, then it doesn't matter when they left. But, since we don't know what time they left, all we can do is determine if there was sufficient time available to make it possible, and there is, even in the most restrictive reading of the testimony. As such, they remain worthy of consideration, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't explore other ideas as well.

- Jeff

We will agree to disagree on the time they had in the square, because even on your figures the later they entered the square the less time the killer would have had in the square with the victim.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

We will agree to disagree on the time they had in the square, because even on your figures the later they entered the square the less time the killer would have had in the square with the victim.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

No worries. As you say, neither of us knows when they entered, so neither of us knows how much time they had. All we know is how much time was available to be had, which is not the same thing as knowing how much of that time was actually used.

- Jeff

[Meet Ze Monster]

Apparently strangulation to the point of unconsciousness doesn't take all that long, in the vicinity of 20-30 seconds, We also don't know for sure that JtR did strangle Eddowes, though the lack of noise is suggestive that he silenced her in some way.

I would suggest that definitely after the Chapman murder (if not the Nichols murder as well), JtR would almost certainly have used strangulation to quieten the victims. I actually don't know for certain if this method is established in any of the post mortems - but my understanding is Chapman showed obvious signs of strangulation before she was ripped. Strangulation offers the Ripper more control over his victim. If he slashed their throats, they would surely have reeled around in panic and left considerable blood spray, been difficult to control. Therefore he must have been highly adept at quick strangulation to subdue them first. I think also the lack of excessive bleeding from the neck wounds confirms they had to have been near death at least before the cut.

Unconsciousness would really have to be achieved in a very short time, as you say '20-30 seconds'. Still, something seems off. In a location like Mitre Square, you're likely to have a natural echo where every little sound is amplified. Surely with residents, night watchmen so near, it's not possible to carry out such an act with no sound at all while hurrying in the darkness.


If Leve's time is right, we have an additional 2 minutes, and if PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, that's another minute (now up to 9 minutes availabe), and if the crime required closer to 3 minutes than 5, then it's easier to fit it in, etc.

It does raise the eternal question of whether the murderer had anatomical knowledge or not when you really look at how quickly and quietly he was able to strangle, cut and remove internal organs in the dark in such a short space of time. It's probably been discussed to death, but there is something remarkable about JtR's apparent ease in achieving his ends.

[JeffHamm]

Apparently strangulation to the point of unconsciousness doesn't take all that long, in the vicinity of 20-30 seconds, We also don't know for sure that JtR did strangle Eddowes, though the lack of noise is suggestive that he silenced her in some way.

I would suggest that definitely after the Chapman murder (if not the Nichols murder as well), JtR would almost certainly have used strangulation to quieten the victims. I actually don't know for certain if this method is established in any of the post mortems - but my understanding is Chapman showed obvious signs of strangulation before she was ripped. Strangulation offers the Ripper more control over his victim. If he slashed their throats, they would surely have reeled around in panic and left considerable blood spray, been difficult to control. Therefore he must have been highly adept at quick strangulation to subdue them first. I think also the lack of excessive bleeding from the neck wounds confirms they had to have been near death at least before the cut.

Unconsciousness would really have to be achieved in a very short time, as you say '20-30 seconds'. Still, something seems off. In a location like Mitre Square, you're likely to have a natural echo where every little sound is amplified. Surely with residents, night watchmen so near, it's not possible to carry out such an act with no sound at all while hurrying in the darkness.


If Leve's time is right, we have an additional 2 minutes, and if PC Harvey patrolled Church Passage at 1:42, that's another minute (now up to 9 minutes availabe), and if the crime required closer to 3 minutes than 5, then it's easier to fit it in, etc.

It does raise the eternal question of whether the murderer had anatomical knowledge or not when you really look at how quickly and quietly he was able to strangle, cut and remove internal organs in the dark in such a short space of time. It's probably been discussed to death, but there is something remarkable about JtR's apparent ease in achieving his ends.

Yes, the lack of anybody hearing a struggle at any of the crime scenes is one of the mysteries. The one exception being the cry of "Murder" reported with regards to Kelly and I suppose Schwart's report that Stride called out 3 times, if not very loudly - but nobody else reports hearing anything even in that case. As for anatomical knowledge, the medical people at the time were of various opinions, ranging from knowledge of medical procedures (Chapman) to familiarity of cutting up animals (Dr. Brown for Eddowes) to no knowledge at all (Dr. Sequeria and Eddowes), so take your pick.

But yes, it does appear the victims had to have been silenced in some way, and overpowered very quickly. How that was done is not known for sure, but everything points to that being achieved.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

I think he was incredibly efficient in his actions, ok not 100% with his methods, although it certainly appears he knew what he was after before the mutilation and the murder, 'tonight I'm going to get myself a kidney'.

With Kate I think he knew that he had to get move on; intestines over the shoulder and by her side were not by design, just simply getting them out the way and in his haste cut into one of them making a beeline for a kidney.

Once he got what he was after he was gone, into the shadows.

[JeffHamm]

I think he was incredibly efficient in his actions, ok not 100% with his methods, although it certainly appears he knew what he was after before the mutilation and the murder, 'tonight I'm going to get myself a kidney'.

With Kate I think he knew that he had to get move on; intestines over the shoulder and by her side were not by design, just simply getting them out the way and in his haste cut into one of them making a beeline for a kidney.

Once he got what he was after he was gone, into the shadows.

Hi Juniper4576,

If one believes he was after a uterus and kidney specifically, rather than just took bits "in the moment" (which was Dr. Sequeria's opinion, that he saw no evidence that JtR had specific designs on any of the organs taken), then it changes how one views what happened. Given the position of the kidney behind a membrain, though, does point to him probably knowing about that. But again, that could just mean he's cut up animals, so he knows the kidneys are behind a protective layer. Whether or not he had kidney as a before the fact objective is one of things we don't know for sure. He might have, or he might not have. Once you make a decision on that, you run the chance of having made the wrong one, so bear that in mind before convincing yourself too strongly one way or the other.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

Jeff,

I just find it totally fascinating how you deliver the timings involved, equally I am amazed how quickly went about his business

[JeffHamm]

Jeff,

I just find it totally fascinating how you deliver the timings involved, equally I am amazed how quickly went about his business

Thanks. Don't forget, though, the timings I present are of course estimations. So they shouldn't be viewed as carved in stone. I do think they are defendable as estimates, but don't misconstrue them as proof. It's not my intention to suggest they are "facts", just to be clear.
- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

[Varqm]

Why? What tells you he was more than an occasional visitor?

I believe he was an occasional visitor by 1888.Also that he knew the place well and enough of what it was like in the early mornings.

[JeffHamm]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

Well, if the CPC are not Eddowes and JtR then they could enter any time after 1:31 or 1:32, which is about the time Watkins would exit the square. My own thoughts, though, is that the rain which kept Lawende et Al at bay would also keep them out and seeking shelter until it passed, but not all agree with me. There's enough time for Eddowes to get to any of the entrances, so none can be conclusively excluded. There's just deminishing evidence available, but the CPC is not strongly enough evidence to be sure or confident that other possibilities can be excluded.

- Jeff

[JeffHamm]

Now, do an analysis of the timings where Jack and Eddowes aren't the couple seen by Lawende and co. Caution: It's gonna be more difficult.

In some ways, it's simpler to analyse things if CPC are not Eddowes and JtR, because we have so few constraints to work with. What we know, is that Eddowes being released around 1:00 am gives her more than enough time to get to Mitre Square. If CPC is not her and JtR, then it seems highly unlikely for them to have entered through Church Passage, so must come through St. James Place, where we know there we "some people" from Blenkinsop's press statement, and we know he didn't take any notice of them, so it is possible there were male and female couples, but we don't know that for sure. He also seems to indicate nobody went into our out of Mitre Square, but again, his "didn't take any notice of them" suggests he wasn't paying that close attention, so maybe. But there's also the entrance from Mitre Street. We know PC Watkins patrolled up from Aldgate to Mitre Square just before 1:30, then Mitre Square at 1:30, and exited back onto Mitre Street and headed north. Eddowes and JtR would have to lag behind him enough not to be noticed as he doesn't report seeing anyone. So again, whether through St. James or Mtire Street, the earliest entry time is after PC Watkin's exits Mitre Square, so somewhere between 1:31 and 1:32 based upon his patrol speed. That's not much earlier, but it is a minute, than the earliest time one could get to for the CPC based upon Leve's estimate of waiting until 1:33 before moving on (but even Leve says 3-4 minutes, and Lawende estimated 5, so the safest bet there is probably 1:34).

Hmmm, I suppose if they entered through St. James, it might make more sense if JtR and Eddowes met as she came down Houndsditch and before she gets to St. Bolotoph's and they head over towards Mitre Square. An entrance through Mitre Street, though, could still have them meeting up at the Church, or further along on Aldgate.

- Jeff