Jack's Escape from Mitre Square

[Wickerman]

The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.

I often think we create these mysteries by simply applying what we think are reasonable assumptions, but those assumptions are taken from the 'perfect world', this is perhaps where we go wrong.
Almost all students of the case prefer to see the couple at the end of church passage as Eddowes & her killer, yet the police were not so certain. When we go with our preferences we create a time-window that may not be justified.
Perhaps this couple was not Eddowes & the killer?

Harvey patrolled church passage on his beat every shift, but why walk down this ally every time, especially when he can see pretty clearly right to the end because there was a gas lamp at the mitre-square end, on the corner of the building. It was not his duty to survey the square, just check the passage, and he could do that from the Duke St. end.
He knows though, that he must include the passage in his report regardless whether he actually walked to the end or not.
Perhaps, PC Harvey did not walk to the end of the passage on every occasion as he passed on his beat?

PC Watkins knows his beat pretty well, he knows it takes 12-14 minutes, so he is required to fill his report with details that are consistent with a 12-14 minute beat. Did he look in every corner with his lamp lit?
Apparently, the oil used for these lamps was paid for by the beat constable himself, so the more he uses his lamp, the more it cost him. Is that a good incentive to always have the lamp on when walking his beat, or just when he thinks it necessary?
In his testimony, according to accounts, we read Watkins entered the square at 1:44, yet in other reports he said he entered the square, discovered the body, ran to the warehouse and alerted Morris, whom he sent for help, and then looked at his watch - it was 1:44. It can't be both.

Did he really enter the square at 1:44?, if so, why check his watch on entering the square? It seems an overly fastidious think to do. Or, more likely, he only checked his watch later, after he sent Morris for help. So, was it really 1:44 at that specific point in time, or was it later, and he has deducted the amount of time he thinks it took him (1, 2 or 3 minutes?) from discovering the body to sending Morris for help?
Remember what Morris claimed - he spoke to Watkins and went to get his lamp, then went into the square to look at the body, before he ran for help. Therefore, his encounter with Watkins was not instantaneous, they were in each others company possibly, for a minute or two?
What does the time 1:44 really represent; the time Watkins entered the square, or an assumed time after he deducted several minutes for his exchanges with Morris?

All these variables can narrow down the time-window if we assume perfection, though if we permit a bit of flexibility in each instance then we find there indeed was time for this killer to do what he did.

[JeffHamm]

I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,
.Yes, even easier for PC Harvey to miss him if JtR leaves as Harvey is coming up Church Passage - Jeff

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Juniper4576,

It is possible. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and PC Harvey's beat did not include going into Mitre Square. As such, he would be looking through a lit area into the dark, which makes it very hard to see anything. However, the likelihood that JtR would stick around after PC Harvey turns around and heads away seems vanishingly small to me. And leaving at that time would explain why PC Watkin's doesn't spot him.

- Jeff

I think you made a previous observation which I have postulated previous and that is if the killer was in the process of carrying out the murder he would have been able to see and hear Pc Harvey coming down Church Passage and would have made his escape very quickly into Mitre Street. Pc Harver would not have been able to see him due to the lamp outside Kearley and Tonges shining in his eyes as he came down the passage, and even if he then stopped where his beat ended and looke into the square it would have taken time for his eyes to adjust

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff

The more I think of it, Jack knew what he was doing, in both in the actual of ripping Kate open and his mental state as well as how to do it; how to get to the organs he wanted...fast, in the dark, and also to weave in and out of Police beats.

I believe Jack knew he wouldn't see Watkins for a while and where Harvey would be soon, possibly Harvey disturbed and Jack saw/heard him coming down Church Passage and that was his cue to leave...highly likely north like you said, effectively in front of Watkins but behind Harvey...or...he slipped between the two through into St. James's Place

Jim

Hi Jim,
I suspect JtR was more interested in killing/mutilating, and the organ taking was a desire that the act created. While I think he had generalised local knowledge that beats tended to be around 15 minutes, and would be aware if a PC went by, I don't think he knew the specific beats. He might have seen Watkins, so knew he had limited time, so worked fast. He seems to have been scared off for Nicole's, and Chapman's crime was very busy, so I don't think he was all that cautious and PC Harvey's arrival may have been lucky for him. He was more lucky than clever, though in his mind he would have reversed that. That's my view, for what it is worth.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Two related pieces on the City PC Witness:

"In search of the City P.C. Witness Part 1" by Wolf Vanderlinden (No. 69 Whitechapel Society Journal August 2016) and Part 2 (no. 70 October 2016).

Excellent analysis of the Mitre Square murder, Harvey and Watkins -- who may have seen what, confusions of murder scenes and conflicting press reports.

[Scott Nelson]

Incidentally, posters who are unaware of these articles should read them if they are interested in the Mitre Square murder. The detail and analysis is phenomenal:

"As Far As Mitre Square" by Neil Bell and Jake Luukanen (Ripperologist no. 71 September 2006)

"City Beat: City PC 881 Edward Watkins" by Neil Bell and Robert Clack (Ripperologist no. 105 August 2009)

"City Beat: Harvey and Watkins, Part 1 - The Discovery" by Gavin Bromley (Ripperologist no. 74) and Part 2 - "The Flight" Ripperologist 75 (January 2007)

[Juniper4576]

Hi Jeff

The more I think of it, Jack knew what he was doing, in both in the actual of ripping Kate open and his mental state as well as how to do it; how to get to the organs he wanted...fast, in the dark, and also to weave in and out of Police beats.

I believe Jack knew he wouldn't see Watkins for a while and where Harvey would be soon, possibly Harvey disturbed and Jack saw/heard him coming down Church Passage and that was his cue to leave...highly likely north like you said, effectively in front of Watkins but behind Harvey...or...he slipped between the two through into St. James's Place

Jim

[JeffHamm]

Is it possible that PC Harvey simply didn't see Jack doing his 'work' on Kate when he went into Church Passage?

I'm trying to see how Jack could have had more time with Kate.

Hi Juniper4576,

It is possible. There was a lamp at the Mitre Square end of Church Passage, and PC Harvey's beat did not include going into Mitre Square. As such, he would be looking through a lit area into the dark, which makes it very hard to see anything. However, the likelihood that JtR would stick around after PC Harvey turns around and heads away seems vanishingly small to me. And leaving at that time would explain why PC Watkin's doesn't spot him.

- Jeff

[Juniper4576]

Is it possible that PC Harvey simply didn't see Jack doing his 'work' on Kate when he went into Church Passage?

I'm trying to see how Jack could have had more time with Kate.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
The more the questions that arise of did the killer have time to do all that he is purported to have done? then the more the accepted timings to show he did are brought into question.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

Perhaps not surprisingly I think it goes the other way and the more the times are looked at the more clear it becomes there was enough time unaccounted for, and therefore it was available. There is no direct evidence to indicate the time was not used, although I recognize your point that we cannot state as a fact it was all used, so we need to consider the possibility he did not. Given the lack of any direct evidence he did not, there's nothing to force us into concluding he did not have enough time.

As for this scenerio in particular, with the "7 minutes and sighted in St. James Place", that comes from a story that is not considered likely to be accurate. I think, as we look at the reported times, that conclusion is further supported. We have reports, only in the press of course, from Blenkinsop that nobody was noticed coming from Mitre Square into St. James Place (calling into question the very sighting), and the timings for it to happen are pushing the evidence to the point we have to discount some (if we start with the CPC as Eddowes and JtR), and even if we don't, they had to be so close on the heels of PC Watkins to enter the square at the required time that it is likely they would have been spotted. While the times could possibly allow for this to have happened, they are being pushed to limits and starting to crack. Given the reported sighting is considered highly questionable, I think the timings show that is the right view. So while the timings don't absolutely eliminate it from prossibility, I think they do lower it to the "improbable" category enough that it's not worth building a lot on it unless something else comes up to add support.

- Jeff

[Meet Ze Monster]

As you can see I'm new here too. I was taking into account the murder of Stride to and thought things got really tight.

After people enlightened to look at different angles of things and shared the research to the level they have gone to to back it up it really opened my eyes.

I understand. I was actually thinking, not including the Stride murder, just the timeframe of the Mitre Square event itself. As for the Stride case, there's a fair amount of people who disagree that she was a Ripper victim, and I'm on the fence with regards to Stride, but either way the Ripper would certainly have had enough time to commit both murders. My puzzle relates mostly to the miniscule timeframe with which Jack had to operate in around the Eddowes murder. But there is a lot of work already done on the timeframes by another, much more well-versed poster. I just have to settle the course of events in my mind to a satisfactory level - or get the most reasonable and logical series to fit within the very small timeframe.

[Juniper4576]

It's all good... I only recently learned that word's meaning myself. :-)

The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.

As you can see I'm new here too. I was taking into account the murder of Stride to and thought things got really tight.

After people enlightened to look at different angles of things and shared the research to the level they have gone to to back it up it really opened my eyes.

[Meet Ze Monster]

Lol I had to Google furphied. Well if it was his beat and he didn't patrol it that one time...

The watchman could of furphied also, or quite possibly turned a blind eye like you mentioned

It's all good... I only recently learned that word's meaning myself. :-)

The Mitre square event is such a puzzle and I keep thinking of questions that can't be answered - only speculated on. One thing is for certain though; it would take an incredible number of things to fall into place in such a tight timeframe that it's truly one of the biggest mysteries around the whole case in my opinion. I hate the notion of just pure luck because, you know, where's the mystery in that!?.

[Juniper4576]

Lol I had to Google furphied. Well if it was his beat and he didn't patrol it that one time...

The watchman could of furphied also, or quite possibly turned a blind eye like you mentioned

[Meet Ze Monster]

And imagine if Watkins, the other PC, didn't go into the square like he said he did, and carried on along Mitre Street...people did say they didn't hear any noise in the square.

I mentioned Jacks luck before!

I've toyed with the idea that Watkins might have furphied a bit, but then to what end? It doesn't really serve the case any which way. As for noise in the square, I assume there would be a considerable echo from foot falls at least as you get in enclosed squares like that. Not to mention all the murdery bits. There would also be no ambient noise like in modern cities, making their apparent silence even more baffling. Those residents of Mitre Sq. must have been stone drunk, or fast asleep. Not to mention the night watchman who defies belief in that he heard nothing. Was his door not open a little way? It's not like he was listening to his iPod. Perhaps he was used to the prostitutes using the Square at night and sort of, turned a blind eye?