LeGrand conspiracy

[mariab]

Phil, I've been wading through this sludge for the last 4 years, trying to clear the waters but every time I go through it all on message boards and try and get back to basic facts, someone comes along and muddys the waters again.

I'm sure I've majorly contributed to the muddying of the waters yesterday, as I didn't even know that the other Le Grand criminal from London also spotted the first name Charles!

Maria, you can have the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand as your Paris spy if you like seeing as our Le Grand was definitely in prison in 1890.

Andersen/Anderson in 1915 was a police suspect, nothing to do with spies or anarchists. I'll post the file soon if you wish, it's from the Paris Police Museum archives. I might need to ask our Croydon researcher/Ripperologist/photographer extraordinaire if he might be willing to clean up my poor quality pic a bit? Or should I research it a bit longer in the Police Gazzette(s) of London and Paris, before posting it here and taking up space for something possibly irrelevant?
And I'm willing to bet that Rob Clack has nothing in common with the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand, despite them being neighbours historically?

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,

Thank you for your reply and in connection with the 1887 case, the 1889 case and the 1891 case I am in total greement with you.

That is why I concentrated, in my last post on the 1877 and 1879 cases, as shown above. I still believe that we need a total oversight over all movements of all known Le Grands and aliases in one list so as to be able to differentiate between them all.

best wishes

Phil

Phil, I've been wading through this sludge for the last 4 years, trying to clear the waters but every time I go through it all on message boards and try and get back to basic facts, someone comes along and muddys the waters again.
That is the basic timeline of Le Grand convictions proven to be him. The question of Christian Nelson may not be solved so easily, but proof in the records may come along and show one way or another at some point...hopefully.

Maria, you can have the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand as your Paris spy if you like seeing as our Le Grand was definitely in prison in 1890.

[mariab]

Phil,
I'm not sure if I've clarified enough that Charles Le Grand was a con name that appeared MUCH, MUCH later than Christian Nielson and Christian Briscony. I don't know if Le Grand as a con-name already appeared in 1884 or just in 1886, but Tom and Debs will know.
Personally I have no doubt whatsoever that Christian Nielson and Charles Le Grand were one and the same. I'd be willing to consider the possibility that Dubois might have been OUR Le Grand, combined with an early release in 1879 and re-capture until 1884, IF new evidence were to turn up pertaining to this.
You should know that Le Grand allegedly frequently travelled to Paris, in 1890 allegedly under the name Anderson (according to his cleaning lady). Thus my Paris research. No problem about Andersen, I'll look in the London Police Gazette and its French equivalent.
Still, I wished someone told me if Neilson from Wealdstone is a reference from the SB ledgers or not.

I would like to see something from that time i.e. 1877 or release in or before 1884 that shows Charles Nelson was in fact Charles Le Grand.

Pertaining to this I've posted the Old Bailey transcripts from 1891 referring to 1877, with an internet link, plus there is the police photo from 1877 ressembling the Reynolds sketch from 1891.

There is an enormous problem in relation to just how many people had what alias. Maria pointed out that there were many called Le Grand, and cited French records..

We'll figure it out eventually.

I can find no record in the criminal registers of any conviction of Charles Le Grand assaulting a prostitute in May 1887.. I will ferret around again just in case and double check, under all aliases. Unless any of you have this perhaps?

The 1886 case with the assault on Pasquier (a prostitute) was tried at the Marlborough Courts, not at the Old Bailey. Tom presents the proceedings in his Examiner 2 article.

There is clearly confusion when Maria says one thing, Tom says another, you Debs say another etc..

I'm sure there is. I'm still learning and Tom doesn't have his sources (lost in his old computer crush), so you can mainly depend on Debs... Plus, of lately, Rob Clack has massively began to dig out sources! Not to mention the newspaper find by Mike Covell (identified by Howard Brown) linking Le Grand to the Ripper investigation. (The latter is also discussed in Examiner 2.)

It's a bit of a mess, I know, but he's a new suspect, and the book pertaining to him is in the process of being written...

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you for your reply and in connection with the 1887 case, the 1889 case and the 1891 case I am in total greement with you.

That is why I concentrated, in my last post on the 1877 and 1879 cases, as shown above. I still believe that we need a total oversight over all movements of all known Le Grands and aliases in one list so as to be able to differentiate between them all.

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

I can find no record in the criminal registers of any conviction of Charles Le Grand assaulting a prostitute in May 1887.. I will ferret around again just in case and double check, under all aliases. Unless any of you have this perhaps?

I must add here that normally, I am one who DOES rely on newspaper articles for facts.. but I must say when there is no OFFICIAL record in the Criminal registers for all of the supposed convictions for THE Charles Le Grand, and at the same time the official records (such as 1877-Nelson) show no alias given, yet does have an alias for a Charles Le Grande in 1879 (Dubois), together with a consecutive sentence, then I humbly suggest this needs thoroughly sorting out, because, it must be said, without concrete proof of whom was whom at any given time, one could easily "fit" a name to a historically correct record, and pass it off as fact-or vice-versa.

Le Grand's 1887 conviction (he received a fine) was at the Marlborough Street magistrates court and recorded in the court sessions in the newspapers in March 1887. A man named John Tyrell or Tysell was also later convicted in connection with the same case.
If the LMA holds the court sessions records for Malborough, as it does for other court sessions, then the official record would be there there. In this case, sessions reporting of criminal cases is hardly newspaper gossip!

How do we know this is the same Le Grand? Because Amelia Demay's name is also mentioned in the 1887 case. Le Grand and Demay went on to be convicted of conspiracy to blackmail Dr. Malcolm Alexander Morris in 1889 and were both given custodial sentences. Le grand's sentence (originally recorded as 5 years penal servitude) was later changed to an imprisonment sentence of 2 years through a legal technicality, reported at the time.

This 1889 case is then reported at Le Grand's 1891 Old Bailey trial as a previous conviction of Le Grand's, and proven as such.

Consider that a conviction as Charles Dubois' is never mentioned at any of Le Grand's trials. And previous convictions were sought out and used at trial to determine the length sentence given. Maybe that tells us something?

I think the 86 and 87 case is someone else, as I have said. I am under the impression (through reading several law books on the subject over the years) that no one could be released from an imprisonment sentence early. I am prepared to be corrected on that if I am wrong though.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

Sorry, but I cannot help you re. Anderson anno 1915, as the Criminal registers online from Ancestry only go up to 1892.

Re. Grundy, I was searching through he records (above) and came across another name (Grundy) which caught my eye, as I was thinking of the nick-name/alias "Grandy". I am currently looking through those records as well. Probably a totally different man. I will be concentrating on the online things for a good while now the rest of the day, sp please excuse me if I do not reply to any more postings straight away. Thank you.

Oh.. and Re. "Neilson from Wealdstone"- I have been unable to trace anything in the Criminal records under this name either so far.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi Debs, all,

Thanks you for your imput, and I indeed look forward to the explanations behind the thoughts.I have seen the 2nd posting and read the postings on the forums... I am a bit slow on the uptake, my apologies...which is why I am mostly concentrating (here in this posting) on the 1877 and 1879 convictions.

The 1877 entry and the 1879 entry are, as you say, a bit different.

The points I am trying to establish here are many fold.

1) We need a comprehensive list of all known "Le Grand/Le Grande/Nelson/Neilson/ etc etc" convictions in a timeline, which clearly distinguishes between all names and all aliases, because the 1877 Charles Nelson conviction, for the same time line as a Le Grand conviction, referred to 30 odd years later as the same man needs either differentiating or confirming as either both the same man and conviction or two different ones.

2) The conviction in 1877 for Charles Nelson is a recorded factual document (criminal register). I would like to see something from that time i.e. 1877 or release in or before 1884 that shows Charles Nelson was in fact Charles Le Grand.
Either as the alias used, doesn't matter. Evidence 30 years later is fine, but not contemporary.

3) The 1879 Dubois/Le Grand conviction shows a consecutive sentence being served does it not? Perhaps I am mistaken here? Does that mean the man could be standing trial for an offence whilst already in prison, i.e. recalled to stand trial for another offence?
If I however am not mistaken, then it raises questions about just whom Charles Le Grand was in 1877, i.e. was he Charles Nelson or not?

4) There is an enormous problem in relation to just how many people had what alias. Maria pointed out that there were many called Le Grand, and cited French records.. but that wasn't my point. In LONDON, or in ENGLAND, there weren't many calling themselves Nelson AND Le Grande at the same time, with convictions for the same offence. Now Tom has pointed out there were 7 (SEVEN) different "Le Grands"... and I would like to see all these 7 Le Grands with all their different convictions, and all their aliases.

5) My final point is clarity. There are questions from before as to whether Charles Le Grand was or wasn't Christian Nelson (which you Debs pointed out to Tom in a previous post). I posted convictions from...

1877 (Christian Nelson- 7/8 Years- 9th July 1877-8th jUly 1884/5)
Larceny and receiving after a previous conviction.

1879 (Charles Le Grande/Charles Dubois 2 months-3rd April 1879 and another felony running consecutively),
Larceny after previous conviction for similar offence

1886 (Charles Le Grand- 6 months- 1st Nov 1886-1st May 1887)
Larceny

1887 (Charles Le Grande- 8 months- 23rd May to 22nd January 1888)
Larceny and receiving (twice)

1891 (Charles Grande- 20 years- 16th Nov 1891-15th Nov 1911).
Sending letter demanding money with menaces.

I can find no record in the criminal registers of any conviction of Charles Le Grand assaulting a prostitute in May 1887.. I will ferret around again just in case and double check, under all aliases. Unless any of you have this perhaps?

I must add here that normally, I am one who DOES rely on newspaper articles for facts.. but I must say when there is no OFFICIAL record in the Criminal registers for all of the supposed convictions for THE Charles Le Grand, and at the same time the official records (such as 1877-Nelson) show no alias given, yet does have an alias for a Charles Le Grande in 1879 (Dubois), together with a consecutive sentence, then I humbly suggest this needs thoroughly sorting out, because, it must be said, without concrete proof of whom was whom at any given time, one could easily "fit" a name to a historically correct record, and pass it off as fact-or vice-versa.

So I suggest a timeline, as above, of THE Charles Le Grand is in order and the definitive weeding away and re-bracketing of all other "Le Grands" etc so we actually know who is who at any given moment in time.

I appreciate fully and immensely your previous and ongoing efforts, together with Tom's, Maria's, Robs, Livia's, Chris Scott's and anyone I have forgotten temporarily.

There is clearly confusion when Maria says one thing, Tom says another, you Debs say another etc.. no offence to anyone intended in the least... I am normally the one that is the most confused with names of all of us here!

Hope you are all having a "grand" day... pardon the pun.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Wow! I wasn't even aware that they even spotted the same first name (as in Charles)... I wish I'd known this yesterday.
Thank you so much for the information, Debs.

[Debra A]

To make it quicker, here's a link to one of the threads discussing this 86 and 87 conviction (the newspaper article I posted at the end of the thread confirms the two convictions were by the same man in both cases)

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=9669

This Charles Le Grand was convicted in November 1886 and sentenced to 6 months imprisonment, a sentence which had to be served in full as it was an imprisonment sentence and so remission did not apply, that only applied to sentences of penal servitude.
'Our' Le Grand appeared in the magistrates courts in March 1887, only four months later, on charges of assault.

[Debra A]

Hi Phil, all
Just a quick one as it will take some time to write a comprehensive post about this I think.
These entries have been posted and discussed by myself, Chris Scott, Livia Trivia at various times on JTRforums.
The 1886 and 1887 entries are for a different Charles Le Grand I personally think. I will post the relevant details and thinking behind my conclusion when I get more time later today as I will have to dig out some newspaper reports I saved.
Basically, 'our' Le Grand was on trial for assaulting a prostitute in March 1887, the Charles Le Grand referred to in these Criminal Register entries was still serving a 6 month sentence at that time.

The 1878 one is a bit different and has been previously written off by me because of the Christian Nelson imprisonment 1877-84.

[mariab]

Phil, I didn't quite made clear that “Charles Le Grand“ is a later con-name than Christian Neilson/Nelson, followed by “Christian Briscony“.
I'm researching Danish diplomats stationed in England and France with similar names as Nielsen in the hope of identifying his alleged diplomat father. (I've got all relevant diplomats/secretaries/attachés in a xerox copy from a Danish lexicon of diplomats.)

[mariab]

Phil, thank you so much for your important contribution.

the same people using the same aliases committing the same crime isn't very common. Especially such a foreign sounding name.. "Le Grand"
Re Grundy.. yes there was. But as yet no known alias as yet of Le Grand/Nelson/Neilson/ ad nauseum.

Phil, incidentally “Le Grand“ was a very common French name in the 19th century (and earlier), and clearly, according to Debs' evidence, a very common con-name for criminals pretending to be French. Even Ostrog used this specific con-name (as Grant). Also I've found several Charles Le Grands in the French criminal records, all indicted for extortion, and I'll research them further when I get back to Paris.
Could you elaborate about Grundy?
Briscony I've always suspected is a play on the Italian word briccone, which is a colloquial expression meaning “thug“, as it's not a common British name, apparently. Briccone was used super frequently and internationally in the 18th/19th century. Kinda like capisce, gumarra today. It's one of Le Grand's earlier con-names.

Anderson might be relevant, as he appears to have been an important suspect in both London and Paris in the fall of 1915. I've got a French police report referring to him in unusual secrecy and urgency. (Though it should be reminded that Le Grand, if out of prison, was not a young man anymore in 1915.) Still, I'd be eternally thankful if you kept an eye out for any Anderson releases/mentions in Ancestry police registers, if you happen to look around again?

Christian Nelson, imprisoned in the same year (1877) for the same period of time, for the same offence, ISN'T the same person as the Le Grand you say was imprisoned. Which leads me to the next point. The Charles Le Grand/Charles Dubois conviction clearly states his alias. The Christian Nelson conviction, if this conviction WAS Charles Le Grand, doesn't.

It's not as simple as this. Please don't forget the fact that Christian Nelson's photograph matches Charles Le Grand's sketch, plus see the evidence from the Old Bailey proceedings below. The Dubois coincidence can be easily explained by an earlier release - then a re-capture until 1884. We really gotta check releases in 1878-79, perhaps the London Police Gazzette too...

In answer No.3 you state that Christian Nelson convicted in 1877 IS Charles Le Grand. Where in Nelson's record is this recorded?

It'd be ideal if Debs and Tom presented the information on this, since they have all the sources available. Mostly it boils down to the 1891 Old Bailey trial, where Le Grand was found “not guilty“ of being Christian Neilson.YET:
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-27-18911116&div=t18911116-27&terms=Charles#highlight

(The comments in {} and the enhancing are my additions.)
He was further charged with having been convicted of felony on 9th July, 1877, at the Guildhall, Westminster, to which he pleaded NOT GUILTY. {Under the name Christian Neilson.}
GEORGE HEWLETT: I was formerly in the D division of Police—on 9th July, 1877, I was at the Sessions of the Peace at the Guildhall, Westminster—I produce a certificate of the conviction of Christian Neilson (This was a certificate of conviction of stealing and receiving, after a previous conviction—Sentence, Eight Years Penal Servitude and Seven Years' Police Supervision)—the prisoner is the man.
Cross-examined: I am not in the Police now; I retired last May—I have not seen the prisoner since July, 1877, till about a month ago—there is a photo of him here—don't know whether the warder is here.—I don't know when the prisoner came out of prison—I think he was convicted at this Court in June, 1889, but I don't know it.
Re-examined: I have no doubt that he is the man who was convicted in 1877.
THEODORE BARTELLS (Detective Sergeant): On 6th May, 1884, a prisoner who was released on ticket-of-leave reported himself to me—the prisoner is that man—he reported himself in the name of Christian Neilson—I saw him again in Holloway Prison, after his arrest on this charge—I did not know him before.
Cross-examined: He only reported himself on his release, not afterwards—I did not make inquiry for him—I have heard that in 1889 he was corresponding with Inspector Wybrow—when he reported himself I was furnished with this document containing his photo, with a description of marks, and so on, in the usual way.
NOT GUILTY.

You can also peruse the old thread Le Grand from the Strand at the JTRForums, but it contains some not updated/corrected information.

In answer to No.4, do we know where THE Charles Le Grand was at this time (May 1887-Jan 1888) if this is NOT THE Charles Le Grand?

Since you apparently just discovered the 1886 conviction for larceny (and congrats for this!), we need to research it. But it may very well be him, since we don't have his traces for the entire year 1886, if I'm not missing information. In 1887 he wrote a letter to the Police from London, and in the fall of 1888 he was reportedly with the WVC and on Berner Street. :-)

[Phil Carter]

Larceny was a very common offense at the time.
There was no “Grundy“.

Hello Maria,

I am aware of the fact that larceny was a common offence, but the same people using the same aliases committing the same crime isn't very common. Especially such a foreign sounding name.. "Le Grand"

Re Grundy.. yes there was. But as yet no known alias as yet of Le Grand/Nelson/Neilson/ ad nauseum.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the reply.

I quote you if I may..

...For starters, Le Grand was in prison from 1877 to 1884

Now unless you know and can show us otherwise.. I presume he (CLG) was in prison under that name, Charles Le Grand... if he was, Christian Nelson, imprisoned in the same year (1877) for the same period of time, for the same offence, ISN'T the same person as the Le Grand you say was imprisoned.

Which leads me to the next point. The Charles Le Grand/Charles Dubois conviction clearly states his alias. The Christian Nelson conviction, if this conviction WAS Charles Le Grand, doesn't.
which leads me to Maria's answers..


Hello Maria,

Thanks for the reply.

In answer No.3 you state that Christian Nelson convicted in 1877 IS Charles Le Grand. Where in Nelson's record is this recorded?

In answer to No.4, do we know where THE Charles Le Grand was at this time (May 1887-Jan 1888) if this is NOT THE Charles Le Grand?


In answer to your question. The entries are all found online, courtesy of the Ancestry site under Criminal Registers 1791-1892.

best wishes and thank you again both, for your answers.

Phil

[mariab]

You see, the common link between every one of the entries I have posted, is the crime. Larceny and receiving. So if there were as many as 7 different people as you say using the same aliases, it is quite a feat that the same crimes were involved. Also, we are in dire need of separating them for historical purposes, are we not? Perhaps you have done this already? I am not yet including any Grandy/Grundy/Briscony/Anderson/Grant/ Charles Colnette Grandy crime register entries.

Larceny was a very common offense at the time.
There was no “Grundy“.
If you happen to spot any Anderson criminals around 1915, it would be of interest, as I've got a hint from the Paris criminal archives for such a suspect having been under police surveillance in BOTH London and Paris in November 1915. I'll look in the London Police Gazzette for the entire year 1915, but I can't do it before mid August. Anyone willing to research this first is welcome.