LeGrand conspiracy

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil. For starters, Le Grand was in prison from 1877 to 1884, which would have made it difficult for him to have stood trial as Charles Dubois in 1879.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Obviously we have to clear this out.
Until now we assumed that Le Grand got factually imprisoned for 7 years in 1877, as he was wanted in the London Police Gazzette in 1884 for failing to appear for parole.
Either the Le Grand-Dubois is another individual, or Le Grand got out of prison previously to 1779. Clearly we need to check the years 1878-79 for prison releases.
Debs has plenty of info about a couple other criminals with the con-name Grand. (Still, I don't think any of them spotted the first name Charles.)

To Phil Carter's questions:
1) We gotta research release dates and hope for some data. I'm sure Debs will have more research ideas.
2) Needs to be researched. I'll look in Paris, just in case.
3) Most probably, because the age, the physical description, and the photo vs. sketch fit.
4) Needs to be researched.

Might I inquire where you've got these sources you've kindly posted, and if online?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the reply Tom..I would be interested to see the differing Le Grands, Nelson's etc..

1) How does one differentiate between them without the age stated in the conviction records?

2) More pertinently, is THE Charles Le Grand the same as Charles Dubois?.. if he is..

3) Is Christian Nelson convicted in 1877 the same as THE Charles Le Grand?

4) Is the conviction for Charles Le Grand in 1887 one for THE Charles Le Grand?

You see, the common link between every one of the entries I have posted, is the crime. Larceny and receiving. So if there were as many as 7 different people as you say using the same aliases, it is quite a feat that the same crimes were involved. Also, we are in dire need of separating them for historical purposes, are we not? Perhaps you have done this already? I am not yet including any Grandy/Grundy/Briscony/Anderson/Grant/ Charles Colnette Grandy crime register entries.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil,

Not all of these are OUR Charles Le Grand. There was like seven men using that alias.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Nelson and Le Grand

Hello all,

Perhaps someone can explain something to me? Perhaps I am missing something here. (probably) LOL

If there is "overwhelming evidence" (quote Tom, earlier post) that Christian Nelson and Charles Le Grand were one and the same...perhaps someone could kindly explain how Christian Nelson was imprisoned for 8 years in 1877, and Charles Le Grand was imprisoned in 1879 under the name of Charles Dubois?
There is no mention in the 1879 entry for any alias of Dubois/Le Grand, i.e. no mention under Christian Nelson, whereas an alias of Le Grand is mentioned under the conviction of Dubois.

Herewith the entry for the Christian Nelson conviction:-
(I have included the whole page for detail purposes)

Held at Westminster, 9th July 1877

Entry No. 23 (the bottom entry on the my cropped copy of page)

Name: Christian Nelson

Offence(s): Larceny and receiving after previous conviction

Convicted and sentenced-Penal sevitude: 8 years
Convicted and sentenced-Term of Police supervision: 7 years

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

It may be news to many, methinks.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Many thanks for posting all of this.
I'm particularly interested in the “Dubois“ early con-name. I'll be checking it in the Paris criminal records, just to be sure. (When I get there in October.)
The May 23, 1887 larceny convinction is complete news to me.

[Phil Carter]

1887

Hello all,

Likewise for 1887.

Clerkenwell, 23rd May 1887, County of Middlesex.

Entry as follows:-

Entry no. : 18

Name: Charles Le Grand

Offence(s): Larceny in dwelling house and receiving
and larceny and receiving

Convicted and sentenced: 8 months

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

1879

Hello all,

Likwise the above, this from 1879, under the name Charles Dubois.

Borough and County of Southampton, 3rd day of April, 1879.

Entry reads:


Entry No. 7

Name: Charles Dubois otherwise called Charles Le Grand

Offence(s): Larceny/after previous conviction for similar offence
At this session on 2nd June Bill was preferred and
found against the said Charles Le Grand for felony
to which he ?severally? pleaded guilty.

(NB my underlining and questioning, am unsure of this word)

Convicted and sentenced: 2 Calendar months imprisonment
with hard labour for each offence
sentences- consecutive.

Undersigned by Clerk of Peace.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

1891

Hello all,

Likewise the previous posting, Central Criminal Court, 16th November 1891, Old Bailey, County of London.

The Entry reads:-

Entry No. 2

Name: Charles Grande

Offence(s): Sending letter demanding money with meances

Convicted and sentenced: 20 yrs


best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

1886

Hello all,

In case there are those who have never seen this, herewith the record of registration of Charles Le Grand's offence after trial, on 1st November 1886,
recorded in the Parish of St. Mary, Newington, County of Surrey.

The entry reads:-

Entry No. 7

Name: Charles Le Grand

Offence(s): Larceny in a dwelling house to value of £5

Convicted and sentenced: Six calendar months hard labour

Undersigned by ? Wyatt, Clerk of the Peace for the said County of Surrey.



best wishes

Phil

[The Grave Maurice]

Fascinating info, Colin. Thanks.

[Colin Roberts]

Does it say which month in 1911?

Enumeration of the Census of England & Wales, 1911, occurred on Sunday, 2 April, of that year.

..., is “born at sea“ a Victorian code for “alien“ (as in, non British citizen)?

'Born at Sea', in the context of census enumeration, translates literally: Born at sea.

In accordance with the Census of England & Wales, 1911, of 4,521,685 persons enumerated within the County of London, 1,495 (i.e. 0.03306%) were recorded as having been 'Born at Sea'.

Administrative County of London
- Male: 2,126,341
- Female: 2,395,344

- Total: 4,521,685

--- {Born at Sea}
----- {Male: 655}
----- {Female: 840}

----- {Total: 1,495}

[mariab]

An important find, Debs and Rob.
Does it say which month in 1911?
Also, is “born at sea“ a Victorian code for “alien“ (as in, non British citizen)?

[Debra A]

Le Grand in 1911

This may not be immediately obvious as Le Grand but it matches up with Le Grand's 1908 Old Bailey conviction as George Jackson that I posted about recently. That Le Grand was using this occupation and birthplace in other records is confirmed by some information found by Rob Clack today.

Name/relationship to head/age last birthday/marriage/ occupation/industry [code]/employed or own account/ working at home/birthplace/nationality [code]




Nationality code- 982 Born at Sea British Subjects Residents
Industry Code- 454 Others connected with Literature &c - other

His Majesty's Convict Prsion
Pricetown Dartmoor
Reference RG14PN13099 RD279 SD2 ED28 SN9999