LeGrand conspiracy

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you for your reply and in connection with the 1887 case, the 1889 case and the 1891 case I am in total greement with you.

That is why I concentrated, in my last post on the 1877 and 1879 cases, as shown above. I still believe that we need a total oversight over all movements of all known Le Grands and aliases in one list so as to be able to differentiate between them all.

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Phil,
I'm not sure if I've clarified enough that Charles Le Grand was a con name that appeared MUCH, MUCH later than Christian Nielson and Christian Briscony. I don't know if Le Grand as a con-name already appeared in 1884 or just in 1886, but Tom and Debs will know.
Personally I have no doubt whatsoever that Christian Nielson and Charles Le Grand were one and the same. I'd be willing to consider the possibility that Dubois might have been OUR Le Grand, combined with an early release in 1879 and re-capture until 1884, IF new evidence were to turn up pertaining to this.
You should know that Le Grand allegedly frequently travelled to Paris, in 1890 allegedly under the name Anderson (according to his cleaning lady). Thus my Paris research. No problem about Andersen, I'll look in the London Police Gazette and its French equivalent.
Still, I wished someone told me if Neilson from Wealdstone is a reference from the SB ledgers or not.

I would like to see something from that time i.e. 1877 or release in or before 1884 that shows Charles Nelson was in fact Charles Le Grand.

Pertaining to this I've posted the Old Bailey transcripts from 1891 referring to 1877, with an internet link, plus there is the police photo from 1877 ressembling the Reynolds sketch from 1891.

There is an enormous problem in relation to just how many people had what alias. Maria pointed out that there were many called Le Grand, and cited French records..

We'll figure it out eventually.

I can find no record in the criminal registers of any conviction of Charles Le Grand assaulting a prostitute in May 1887.. I will ferret around again just in case and double check, under all aliases. Unless any of you have this perhaps?

The 1886 case with the assault on Pasquier (a prostitute) was tried at the Marlborough Courts, not at the Old Bailey. Tom presents the proceedings in his Examiner 2 article.

There is clearly confusion when Maria says one thing, Tom says another, you Debs say another etc..

I'm sure there is. I'm still learning and Tom doesn't have his sources (lost in his old computer crush), so you can mainly depend on Debs... Plus, of lately, Rob Clack has massively began to dig out sources! Not to mention the newspaper find by Mike Covell (identified by Howard Brown) linking Le Grand to the Ripper investigation. (The latter is also discussed in Examiner 2.)

It's a bit of a mess, I know, but he's a new suspect, and the book pertaining to him is in the process of being written...

[Debra A]

Hello Debs,

Thank you for your reply and in connection with the 1887 case, the 1889 case and the 1891 case I am in total greement with you.

That is why I concentrated, in my last post on the 1877 and 1879 cases, as shown above. I still believe that we need a total oversight over all movements of all known Le Grands and aliases in one list so as to be able to differentiate between them all.

best wishes

Phil

Phil, I've been wading through this sludge for the last 4 years, trying to clear the waters but every time I go through it all on message boards and try and get back to basic facts, someone comes along and muddys the waters again.
That is the basic timeline of Le Grand convictions proven to be him. The question of Christian Nelson may not be solved so easily, but proof in the records may come along and show one way or another at some point...hopefully.

Maria, you can have the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand as your Paris spy if you like seeing as our Le Grand was definitely in prison in 1890.

[mariab]

Phil, I've been wading through this sludge for the last 4 years, trying to clear the waters but every time I go through it all on message boards and try and get back to basic facts, someone comes along and muddys the waters again.

I'm sure I've majorly contributed to the muddying of the waters yesterday, as I didn't even know that the other Le Grand criminal from London also spotted the first name Charles!

Maria, you can have the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand as your Paris spy if you like seeing as our Le Grand was definitely in prison in 1890.

Andersen/Anderson in 1915 was a police suspect, nothing to do with spies or anarchists. I'll post the file soon if you wish, it's from the Paris Police Museum archives. I might need to ask our Croydon researcher/Ripperologist/photographer extraordinaire if he might be willing to clean up my poor quality pic a bit? Or should I research it a bit longer in the Police Gazzette(s) of London and Paris, before posting it here and taking up space for something possibly irrelevant?
And I'm willing to bet that Rob Clack has nothing in common with the 1886/7 Croydon Le Grand, despite them being neighbours historically?

[Debra A]

Maria, did you not read Rob's post to you on forums earlier this morning about Le Grand still being in prison the whole of 1915?

Anyway... Phil, I have two newspaper reports from the 1879 case of Legrand alias Dubois but I am having trouble posting any attachments. I will email them to you later when I get more time.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you, I look forward to them, most appreciated. I will try and post them if you wish?

best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Maria, did you not read Rob's post to you on forums earlier this morning about Le Grand still being in prison the whole of 1915?

Apologies, was working and didn't visit JTRForums today. I'll look it up immediately. Looks like this settles it for Anderson.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you, I look forward to them, most appreciated. I will try and post them if you wish?

best wishes

Phil

Hello Debs,

Recd and posted herewith . Thank you for sending them. Most appreciated.

The Hampshire Advertiser (Southampton, England), Wednesday, March 19, 1879;(candlesticks and cashbox stealing)
The Hampshire Advertiser (Southampton, England), Wednesday, April 02, 1879 (Overcoat stealing)


best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs, all,

I am not trying to muddy waters with this post, I promise I am not, honest Debs! .. but I thought I'd give an overview of how complicated this is...of sorts here.. it's an idea at least..
Takes a deep breath... we have..

according to the A-Z, latest edition..

Charles Le Grand, THE Le Grand alias

1) Capt. Anderson
2) Christian Briscony (possibly his real name)
3) French Colonel
4) Charles Grand
5) Charles Grant
6) Charles Colonette Grandy
7) Christian Nelson

"Danish, possibly son of a Danish diplomat or someone connected with the Danish diplomatic service".

Also that he "called himself Charles Grant in 1891" in reference to the letters conviction, NOT Grand.
Also " he did not need money at the time he did this, perhaps suggesting mental illness" This is without any reference to any incarceration due to mental illness.

Away from the A-Z.. we have

8) Charles Le Grand identified as Christian Nelson from a conviction around 30 years before this identification.
9) Identification of photographic and sketch evidence comparing Le Grand to Christian Nelson.
10) THE Charles Le Grand convicted of various offences, including larceny.
11) Another Charles Le Grand convicted of Larceny offences a la THE Le Grand in 1886 and 1887. See blue attachments and previous attachments from Criminal records in previous posts.
12) Charles Grand convicted in 1891, an alias of Charles Le Grand( as opposed to the A-Z listing of Charles Grant)
13) An Olympe Le Grand acquitted on charges of larceny in 1876
14) A Daniel Le Grand acquitted for robbery with violence in 1880
15) A Charles Dubois, an alias of a Charles Le Grand, convicted for larceny and receiving
16) George Jackson, an alias of Charles Le Grand, with certain matches from prison records in the 1900's (Debs, Rob Clack)
From other sources...

17) Michael Ostrog calling himself Le Grand (Maria, Paris archives)
18) A Le Grand or two in the Paris archives, (Maria)
19) A Croydon Charles Le Grand
20) A Southwark Charles Le Grand
21) A Charles Le Grand aged 17, born in the Channel Islands, in the 1881 census, living in Southampton (where Dubois was convicted)

22) Christian Nelson may also be called Neilson (this may also be an englishism of NeilsEn*, the common ending of a Danish name, EN instead of ON)*my suggestion
23) A Charles Neilson convicted in 1870 for wounding on board a ship (on the high seas and given 9 months)(trial was in Lancashire)
24) A Charles Nelson acquitted in 1872 of larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell.
25) A Christien Neilson convicted of larceny in 1876 (4 months) in Hull.

26) A Charles Grant acquitted of Larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell in 1869
27) A Charles Grundy convicted in 1873 of larceny (County of Southampton, Re. Dubois/Le Grande)
28) A Chas C Grandy in prison (Wormwood Scrubs) in 1891 census, born in Denmark, aged 27.

I have probably left out loads of things here.. but this gives all reading this some sort of idea of how complicated this is with so many aliases flying around. Not including all or some of the work already done by Howard, Mike, Debs, Rob, Tom, Maria, Chris Scott and many others.

best wishes

Phil

[Colin Roberts]

This may not be immediately obvious as Le Grand but it matches up with Le Grand's 1908 Old Bailey conviction as George Jackson that I posted about recently. That Le Grand was using this occupation and birthplace in other records is confirmed by some information found by Rob Clack today.

Here's the entire page.

(Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

See line #26:


Census of England & Wales, 1911: George Jackson (Dartmoor) (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

County: Devonshire
Registration District: Tavistock
Civil Parish: (St. Petrock) Lydford
Registration Sub-District: Tavistock
Enumeration District: 28 (His Majesty's Convict Prison, Dartmoor)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Colin, Debs,

Many thanks for this indeed.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil, all,

Just a reminder that the policemen who personally knew 'Christian Nelson' who was in prison from 1877 to 1884 confirmed, under oath, in a court of law, that he and 'our' Charles Le Grand were one and the same. Also, Le Grand was not able to provide ONE WITNESS to prove that had been at liberty at any time during that 7 year period, whereas there should have been a wealth of people, not to mention documents, and it never would have reached court in the first place had he been able to show that he was not Nelson. Therefore, there really is no point in discussing the idea that Nelson and Le Grand were different people. To do so is, as Debs says, merely muddying the waters and preventing more worthwhile discussion from taking place.
Having said that, some of the stuff Phil has posted from 1886, etc., might be worth looking at in more detail, and I certainly WOULD NOT want to stop Phil or anyone from turning up more data that might relate to Le Grand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Chris]

Just a reminder that the policemen who personally knew 'Christian Nelson' who was in prison from 1877 to 1884 confirmed, under oath, in a court of law, that he and 'our' Charles Le Grand were one and the same.

As I read that evidence, it sounds as though the police officers had each seen "Neilson" on a single occasion, one of them 14 years earlier and the other 7 years earlier.

Maybe the police had other information that they weren't in a position to prove in court, but I don't believe it's safe to convict anyone on evidence like that.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs, all,

I am not trying to muddy waters with this post, I promise I am not, honest Debs! .. but I thought I'd give an overview of how complicated this is...of sorts here.. it's an idea at least..
Takes a deep breath... we have..

according to the A-Z, latest edition..

Charles Le Grand, THE Le Grand alias

1) Capt. Anderson
2) Christian Briscony (possibly his real name)
3) French Colonel
4) Charles Grand
5) Charles Grant
6) Charles Colonette Grandy
7) Christian Nelson

"Danish, possibly son of a Danish diplomat or someone connected with the Danish diplomatic service".

Also that he "called himself Charles Grant in 1891" in reference to the letters conviction, NOT Grand.
Also " he did not need money at the time he did this, perhaps suggesting mental illness" This is without any reference to any incarceration due to mental illness.

Away from the A-Z.. we have

8) Charles Le Grand identified as Christian Nelson from a conviction around 30 years before this identification.
9) Identification of photographic and sketch evidence comparing Le Grand to Christian Nelson.
10) THE Charles Le Grand convicted of various offences, including larceny.
11) Another Charles Le Grand convicted of Larceny offences a la THE Le Grand in 1886 and 1887. See blue attachments and previous attachments from Criminal records in previous posts.
12) Charles Grand convicted in 1891, an alias of Charles Le Grand( as opposed to the A-Z listing of Charles Grant)
13) An Olympe Le Grand acquitted on charges of larceny in 1876
14) A Daniel Le Grand acquitted for robbery with violence in 1880
15) A Charles Dubois, an alias of a Charles Le Grand, convicted for larceny and receiving
16) George Jackson, an alias of Charles Le Grand, with certain matches from prison records in the 1900's (Debs, Rob Clack)
From other sources...

17) Michael Ostrog calling himself Le Grand (Maria, Paris archives)
18) A Le Grand or two in the Paris archives, (Maria)
19) A Croydon Charles Le Grand
20) A Southwark Charles Le Grand
21) A Charles Le Grand aged 17, born in the Channel Islands, in the 1881 census, living in Southampton (where Dubois was convicted)

22) Christian Nelson may also be called Neilson (this may also be an englishism of NeilsEn*, the common ending of a Danish name, EN instead of ON)*my suggestion
23) A Charles Neilson convicted in 1870 for wounding on board a ship (on the high seas and given 9 months)(trial was in Lancashire)
24) A Charles Nelson acquitted in 1872 of larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell.
25) A Christien Neilson convicted of larceny in 1876 (4 months) in Hull.

26) A Charles Grant acquitted of Larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell in 1869
27) A Charles Grundy convicted in 1873 of larceny (County of Southampton, Re. Dubois/Le Grande)
28) A Chas C Grandy in prison (Wormwood Scrubs) in 1891 census, born in Denmark, aged 27.

I have probably left out loads of things here.. but this gives all reading this some sort of idea of how complicated this is with so many aliases flying around. Not including all or some of the work already done by Howard, Mike, Debs, Rob, Tom, Maria, Chris Scott and many others.

best wishes

Phil

Phil, some answers to those points:

8)Neilson was convicted 1877, released on ticket of leave in 84 -Le Grand was accused of being Neilson in 1891 at his trial. That's 14 years by my reckoning.
9) If they were different men, Neilson would have had to look a lot Le Grand to be mistaken for him anyway.
10)No larceny charges for THE Le Grand that I can recall.
11)As I have explained, if Iam right about imprisonment sentences being served in full, someone convicted of 6 months imprisonmemt in November 1886 could not be out to stand in the magistrates court in March 1887.THE Le Grand was in the magistrates court and fined in March 1887.
12) He was convicted under the name Charles Grande, a name he also used for his detective agency Grande and Co. as mentioned at his 1891 trial.
13)The surnname Le Grand is not uncommon, I don't see the relevance here
14)The surname is not uncommon, I don't see the relevance here either
16) Le Grand was convicted under the name Geroge Jackson in 1908 and sentenced to 4 years penal servitude. He states at the Old Bailey trial that his real name is Charles Granday.(sic)
17) Ostrog was Dr Grant or Grand Guidon I thought? Not Le Grand
18) irrelevant, it's a common French surname
19)The 1886/87 Le Grand (not our Le Grand if my point #11 is correct
20) An innocent bystander that has nothing to do with anything apart from his name and me having Southwark on the brain.
21) If we take Christian Nielsen out of the equation, THE Le Grand consistently shows up as being born c 1852/3 in most records
22)The spelling of the surname Neilson is irrelevant surely?
23)There were loads of sailors name Neislon, some even named Christian Neilson
24)
25)
26)Charles Grant is a very common name.It was an alias of an American crook confused with Le Grand by the press in 1891 as well. This same crook also went by the alias Grandy and was wanted for a murder in the UK in 1876. His real name was Ivan Siscovitch, but he wasn't Le Grand either. He had fingers missing, unless Maria wants to try and tell me that fingers can grow back.
27) Grundy is a surname too and not uncommon.
28) This is Le Grand, convicted under the name Charles Colnette Grandy in 1889 for blackmailing MA Morris. This is one of the only records for Le Grand where the birthdate given is seriously out from 1852/3

Isn't it being made complicated by including irrelevant information? The whole purpose of research is to discount superfluous information surely, not add to it?

[Debra A]

As I read that evidence, it sounds as though the police officers had each seen "Neilson" on a single occasion, one of them 14 years earlier and the other 7 years earlier.

Maybe the police had other information that they weren't in a position to prove in court, but I don't believe it's safe to convict anyone on evidence like that.

It's strange to think also, that four years later, Christian Nelson, a wanted ticket of leave man who's photo was published in the Police Gazette in 1884 for failing to report, could be mingling with police and detectives (some drafted in from other divisions) in one of the biggest police operations of this era and go unnoticed.