LeGrand conspiracy

[Harry Poland]

Hi Debra.

Sorry to post all this stuff here referring to info elsewhere. I'd love to post in the correct place but I think it's locked to new members :-(

Having said that, reading the names of the posters elsewhere there's a lot of familiar names so hopefully someone might know what the heck I'm talking about.

[Debra A]

Thanks for the thoughts, Harry. I'm not sure that many other posters will even know what records are being discussed here as the documents Rob Clack found referring to deportation of Le Grand as George Jackson in 1917 were posted and discussed on JTR forums and not here on casebook.

[Harry Poland]

OK. IOM internment looks like a dead end.

I've now had a chance to speak to somebody who currently advocates for people threatened with deportation, she is also something of an expert on the legal and cultural history of immigration. Following a lengthy discussion during which several glasses of wine were consumed we've got a new working theory on Legrand's deportation:

Apparently the colour of the ink has some significance: Black=original document, red= 1st amendment, green=2nd and purple would be used if a 3rd was necessary. From this and the lack of red ink we can deduce that Legrand's file was amended at least twice, the lack of red ink suggesting that there is or at least was more information than the current record holds.

The only reason that a DO would be revoked would be on appeal, by the deported person.

The date of 20/06/41 is very unlikely to be the date of appeal and revoke, Legrand would be around dead years old at this date. Of 27/10/15 would make little sense as well (you can't appeal against a DO that has not yet been granted). I'll need to find time to go and see the original but the date is more likely to be 27/10/18 would make much more sense.

Most of the other green DO revoked notes on the page carry a date significantly after the DO was made followed by what is almost certainly a reference number to another file. Again there is a lack of red ink here.

So the theory runs:

1 - Legrand deported to Copenhagen 07/06/17
2 - Legrand appeals and DO is overturned 27/10/18, the records of this being amended to another file, presumably in red (please notice that the first amendments in red on the page from the deportation file have plausible dates (1915, 1919, 1918, 1919)
3 - As a result of a housekeeping, or probate excercise the green amendment was made to the record on 20/06/1941 - Green ink being used either because this book is supposed to be read in conjunction with another document amended in red or because the amendment was not contemporaranious with the revoking of the order)
4- This leads to the inevitable conclusion that YO11 probably refers to another document with further contemporary details.

We are not certain of the above being correct, and due to the constraints of time I my research is limited to the internet armchair variety rather than the proper good fun stuff in the archives, but if we're going to look for Legrand post 1917 I'd say that on balance of probabilities the place to look would be England not Denmark. (There is a George Jackson who appears in the London tax records at about the right time, could this be our man??)

I won't really be able to follow any of this up for a month or so, so if anybody wants to run with it they are most welcome to, but please share what you find)

Moving off at a tangent, I don't think that Christian Nelson is Legrand, not only is the date of birth well off but he is listed as a Danish born British subject on the census.

Legrand remains a fascinating puzzle

[Harry Poland]

Time for a little bit more clutching at straws. I'm all out of solid ideas.

YO11 as an amendment in green on the deportation order of 1917: Considering that the handwriting is terrible, could this be IOM signifying internment on the Isle of Man (Knockaloe??) When I get time, i.e. never, I'll look into it

I'm really enjoying researching this man of several aliases, unknown birth, unknown parentage and unknown death. I keep finding out lots about him - like who he wasn't, where he wasn't and what he didn't do :-)

[Debra A]

Harry, the records found by Rob, which have been posted somewhere, show Jackson received four years penal servitude plus remanet of former sentence (which was just short of four years) He was due to be released in Jan. 1917, eligible for licence in 1915 but the secretary of state withheld his licence and he was not released. The refusal to release him on licence again in 1915 may have been due to the act you mention.

[Harry Poland]

Debs. Just as a matter of technicality, I'm not sure that Legrand's extra sentence was due to breaking the terms of previous licence, which would normally run concurrently with the later term of PS. I think it more probable that he was convicted as being an 'Habitual Criminal' and sentenced under the 1908 Prevention of Crimes Act. If I'm right here then this would have been a judicial decision which will be preserved somewhere in the records.

I've now found a George Jackson appearing in 1917 tax records in Aldersgate Street. No records of him at this place in 1916 so ties with date of release.

[Debra A]

Hi Harry-just quickly.
Le Grand was definitely in prison 1908 until his probable deportation in 1917, after being convicted as George Jackson and breaking the terms of his licence. He received a new sentence plus he had to serve the remaining time of his old sentence.

[Debra A]

Le Grand claimed to have been hired by George Lewis not Soames. He first made the claim at Marlborough Street when brought up on charges to do with the Morris case. George Lewis would later state at the Old Bailey that Le Grand came to him with a PI named Scanlan and a letter of recommendation from the Irish Times and looking to be employed on the Parnell Inquiry. He was, according to Lewis, turned away, as he was on a second lone visit to Lewis.
The mention of Soames name comes up because Lewis was asked at the same CCC trial, if he thought (knew if?) Le Grand was working for Soames, shadowing Piggott and Labouchere. The context of that question is unclear in the transcripts and to my knowledge no one has yet discovered a fuller version of that Old Bailey questioning of Lewis.

[mariab]

I've looked at Clark for some other reason before I seem to recall. It might have been in connection with George Lewis and the Parnell Inquiry, I'll have to check to now though.

Apparently Clarke was employed by George Lewis in the Parnell inquiry, while Le Grand claimed he was hired by Soames to “investigate“ Lewis' good friend, Labouchere. And apparently Clarke was employed by Lewis to investigate Le Grand. Small world?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5445&highlight=The+Primrose+Leagu e

[Harry Poland]

Sorry Debs I assumed that you had LG as the ripper, well you know what they say about assumptions.

You're correct about Dorcas Pizer, no link at all with leather apron.

Eliza Nelson seems to go back quite a long way as always single and always a cook, another dead end there - The ships Eliza Nelson was born in Glasgow.

I've been frying my head trying to crack Legrand for a week solid now. Nothing certain before 1886 (I'm 50/50 over Christian Nelson convicted 1877), nothing certain after 1908 (released 1912? 1917? Deported?)

I'm now clutching at straws chasing a Charles Johnson simply because he was called Charles, Johnson is slightly Scandinavian sounding and according to the electoral registers he lived on Charlotte street in the late 1870s, following that a bit more masochism with the Danish census.

Much to my wife's consternation I've even got a Legrand board in the kitchen with everything pinned to it.

Re-reading the Dr Morris case (over and again) some things in it lead me to believe that Legrand's detective agency may have been at least semi legit:

1) He made attempts to contact Mr. Hester, presumably as a witness
2) In shadowing Morris he sought to speak to numerous servants and the postman. Why try to build a case when you can simply make one up.

The more I look at this case the more I think that in 1888-89 at least Legrand was More Glenn Mulcaire than Prof Moriarty.

By the way I've been reading your stuff on this and other forums about LG and you've done some top draw research. Thank you.

Here is the link to the trial of detectives of 1877, this is probably our Clarke

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18771022-805&div=t18771022-805&terms=clarke|frogatt#highlight

Apparently there is a book on Clarke - The Chieftain by Chris Payne. Perhaps Mr. Payne has dug up something on LG in his research.

[Debra A]

Hi Harry,

Good luck with the research.

I can't find any other man who the marriage certificate applies to if not Le Grand,that and the small window of opportunity for his marriage that falls into exactly the right time slot the wedding took place , plus Elizabeth appearing in the 1911 census alone but married while Le Grand was also now listed as married at Parkhurst. I didn't know about the Fisher connection-there seemed to be a heck of a lot of Edward Fishers living in London when I did a brief check, so thanks for that.

We know Le Grand spoke with a foreign accent as it's mentioned in court cases so I can't see Eliza Nelson born Hackney being any relation to be honest but good luck with that avenue of research.

I don't think I have ever said that I fancy LG as JTR either!! My interest in him is as a contemorary suspect mentioned but not named by the newspapers in 1892. Sgt James thought he was capable of being the Ripper.

LG fascinates me also. I first got interest in him through Tom's Berner Street articles in Ripper Notes when I was researching another Victorian conman (who incidentally was also named as the Ripper by a US newspaper after he arrived in St Louis from London and murdered a man)

I've looked at Clark for some other reason before I seem to recall. It might have been in connection with George Lewis and the Parnell Inquiry, I'll have to check to now though.

Debs

[Harry Poland]

Thanks Debra

I think that the whole Dorcas Pizer thing is a red herring, but I'm going to follow it through just to make sure.

I also think that, the fact that Fisher lived on the same street confirms with a reasonable degree of certianty that 'your' Grande of the marriage certificate is 'our' Legrand

Regarding Nelson, the 'straw man' theory which I'm looking into is that Elizabeth Nelson was Legrand's mother / aunt, with Legrand installing his wife in the property after Nelson's death. So far I've uncovered nothing to suggest that Eliza Nelson was ever anything other than a spinster and a cook.

As I've said elsewhere I don't fancy LG as JTR (we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one), he doesn't fit the profile and he was too visible in Whitechapel during the murders for nobody to say: "Yes, I saw victim X on the night of her murder. I saw them with YOU Mr Legrand"

Still LG fascinates me for what he was. I'm determined to unravel the enigma of the man, and every blind alley that I go up, I at least find out who he wasn't

As another interesting aside, Dr Morris' solicitor in the Grandy / Demay case claimed to employ an ex-police inspector by the name of Clark. I wonder if this was the same Clark[e] implicated and later acquitted by arch con man Harry Benson in the 'trial of detectives', a national scandal in 1877??

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18771022-name-360&div=t18771022-805#highlight

[Debra A]

OK a few co-incidences around Legrand that fantasists can concoct into webs of wonderful conspiracy whilst sober researchers can prove to be just co-incidences. As I'm neither one or the other I thought I'd just chuck them out for other people to play with:

1) According to Debs excellent research on another forum, a marriage certificate for Legrand has been discovered. If this is indeed 'our' Grande [Legrand] then Mrs. Grande lived on Ifield Road, Kensington. - In 1911, Edward Fisher (LeGrand's co-defendant when he was tried as Jackson) lived at number 35 of the same street

2) Living at 49 Ifield road (The last known address of Mrs Legrand) in 1911 was an old lady called Eliza Nelson (Nelson was possible Legrand's first known alias). There are references to an Eliza Nelson working as a stewardess on ships in the 1850s-60s

3) Also living in seperate room at the same address was the family of a retired police officer with called George James (Any relation to William James - I don't know???)

4) The woman which William James was convicted of killing had the surname Pizer

Based on the above I propose the following absurd theory just for laughs:

Legrand was born at sea a bastard with the surname Nelson, to a Ship's stewardess and fathered by a mysterious Danish diplomat.

Legrand was a bona-fide investigator who discovered that William James had provided John Pizer with a false alibi and instead of taking it to the authorities decided instead to use the information to his own advantage. As a result of this William James set out on a lifetime crusade to stitch up Legrand. If anybody can add a Royal or Masonic line to this then go for it :-)

In the meantime, once my gaffer stops looking over my shoulder I'll set out to see if there is any real connection or mere co-incidence

I'm neither one or the other either, I'm a drunken researcher apparently!
But I'll stick my oar in anyway...Electoral registers show Eliza Nelson was never at 49 Ifield Rd. at the same time as Elizabeth Grande. Elizabeth was at #16 until at least 1830, Eliza Nelson (who was born in Hackney) was there from 1907.

Dorcas Pizer and her sister Laura Bertha Constance Pizer(Sgt James' sister in law and wife) were both born in Wiltshire with no visible connections to the East End or Poland so far.

And by a complete coincidence-just to prove they happen all the time -Also at 49 Ifiled Rd was a Harry/Henry Hoare . And I'm just about to answer a post on another forum about a man of the very same name who was an H Division Met PC who claimed to have known all or one of the victims (depending on which paper you read) that I've been researching! ..but he's not the same man..

Thanks for the compliment on my research though. It's nice to see someone actually follows the research, Harry.

[Harry Poland]

OK a few co-incidences around Legrand that fantasists can concoct into webs of wonderful conspiracy whilst sober researchers can prove to be just co-incidences. As I'm neither one or the other I thought I'd just chuck them out for other people to play with:

1) According to Debs excellent research on another forum, a marriage certificate for Legrand has been discovered. If this is indeed 'our' Grande [Legrand] then Mrs. Grande lived on Ifield Road, Kensington. - In 1911, Edward Fisher (LeGrand's co-defendant when he was tried as Jackson) lived at number 35 of the same street

2) Living at 49 Ifield road (The last known address of Mrs Legrand) in 1911 was an old lady called Eliza Nelson (Nelson was possible Legrand's first known alias). There are references to an Eliza Nelson working as a stewardess on ships in the 1850s-60s

3) Also living in seperate room at the same address was the family of a retired police officer with called George James (Any relation to William James - I don't know???)

4) The woman which William James was convicted of killing had the surname Pizer

Based on the above I propose the following absurd theory just for laughs:

Legrand was born at sea a bastard with the surname Nelson, to a Ship's stewardess and fathered by a mysterious Danish diplomat.

Legrand was a bona-fide investigator who discovered that William James had provided John Pizer with a false alibi and instead of taking it to the authorities decided instead to use the information to his own advantage. As a result of this William James set out on a lifetime crusade to stitch up Legrand. If anybody can add a Royal or Masonic line to this then go for it :-)

In the meantime, once my gaffer stops looking over my shoulder I'll set out to see if there is any real connection or mere co-incidence

[mariab]

The Pasquier case was March 1887, Maria.

Absolutely, profound apologies for writing “1886“ in my post.

Thank you so much for transcribing part of the Lloyd's Weekly report discovered by Howard Brown, Debs, as I hadn't read it before.

So who told the Lloyd's reporter?

Somehow in my mind it's not a question of who told that one reporter, but how come the other people hushed about Le Grand's official involvement in the Ripper investigation, including Le Grand himself.

Seems the Ripper was not to be brought into the coverage of Le Grand where the press was concerned. A big hush was put over it

Yep, noticed this too.

Just editing to add- the statement about Le Grand working as a PI in Whitechapel only appears in one edition of Lloyd's for that day (the one How found), the other editions carry a different summary article of Le Grand's trial.

Meaning, they cut it out later? Fascinating.

There are hints in another Loyd's article, covering Sgt. James trial for murdering his sister-in-law in 1903, that James may have been involved in other corrupt activities to do with property. I'm still looking into this, but the editor of Lloyd's, Thomas Catling, was involved in some sort of legal action over his paper printing those accusations.

Debs, legal action undertaken by William James himself, or someone up higher? Might “corrupt activities to do with property“ possibly refer to running (or being associated with) a brothel? Or just to generic, extortion-type fraud?