LeGrand conspiracy

[Rob Clack]

Here is Le Grands entry in the Habitual Criminal registers for 1915 and 1917.

Thanks to Chris Phillips for the heads up on which years to find him.

MEPO 6/27 (1915)



As you can see Le Grand was due to be released on 5 January 1915, but his licence was withheld by the secretary of state. Which is noted below.



MEPO 6/29 (1917)

Le Grand, after being released was deported



Rob

[Debra A]

For example, I listed at the very top the suggestion of the A-Z that he had mental difficulties because he didn't need money yet committed a crime to gain money.. based on what written fact of incarceration or medical comment from a doctor? The A-Z produced no evidence. That kind of comment is muddying waters too I believe. I listed it as another example that confuses the whole issue about Le Grand. I note you made no comment about this?

Phil, I made no comment on the A to Z because I don't have it to hand at the moment and was unsure whether this is comment by the authors of the A to Z or is taken from the article 'Le Grand of the Strand' by Gerry Nixon? In which he makes a similar comment.

Regarding Le Grand's mental health, it was the subject of discussion in 1891 in the letters pages of the Echo. I've mentioned it before, between Robert Buchanan and others. Le Grand's defence apparently claimed at trial that the writer of the blackmailing letters was obviously insane..but of course, the defence was trying to prove Le Grand hadn't written them!

[Debra A]

So it was only a list Debs. No overtures on what was correct and what wasn't, though I do agree with the meaning of your reply, if the intention was to actually muddy waters, which I clearly stated at the very start, it wasn't.
Something akin to this, though far better and far more detailed has been done excellently on the subject of the name(s) of Mary Kelly, by Chris Scott, in book form. He took each possibility a few steps further in each case. As it wasn't deadly serious, as stated, it isn't a true comparison, but I am sure you see the gist of the point I make.

best wishes

Phil

Phil, OK, I accept your explanation and won't hold it against you
But in making that list (in which there were some errors) you make it sound like all previous research on Le Grand has not covered any of these points, considered their worth as avenues of research and make it appear like the whole past research is flawed in some way.That's what I find a bit annoying.

We can trace Le Grand in a definite criminal timeline from 1887-1917, including his stint working with the WVC, all proven to be the same man.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Not being presumptious in any way, but I feel you may have misunderstood the meaning of my post somewhat. I listed all of these for 2 reasons.

1) Whether they are irrelevant or not, at some point or another they come up in research, and each name is connected to the Le Grand name or series of nom de plumes, variation on those aliases, place of trial, (i.e.Southampton-Duboid-Le Grande) etc.
Therefore, I just listed SOME of the things likely to be looked up. Nothing else. I didn't make a comment on what was right or wrong. I just listed them, with an ironic smile on my face. It wasn't a dead serious study of the ins and outs of Le Grand, just the possibilities.. thats all. Things we come across that show a connection, tenuous or nay.

2) My intention was to try to catalogue the problems with researching Le Grand due to the number of aliases associated with the man. For example, I listed at the very top the suggestion of the A-Z that he had mental difficulties because he didn't need money yet committed a crime to gain money.. based on what written fact of incarceration or medical comment from a doctor? The A-Z produced no evidence. That kind of comment is muddying waters too I believe. I listed it as another example that confuses the whole issue about Le Grand. I note you made no comment about this?

The whole listing wasn't muddying waters, but showing where the waters could be muddied. By now explaining these points to the wider world as you have, others do not have to trudge down this path, i.e. others that are behind the in depth research you and other esteemed enthusiasts are at. So that is an extra bonus for all the readers who refer to Casebook for reference.

As regards some one or two of your points..

The name Neilson or Neilsen, Nielson and Nielsen ARE important, I believe, as we know only that the man was born "at sea". Looking for his birth may require an exact spelling of the name, especially IF the man is Danish, as has been suggested. Danish census records for example, are difficult enough to read, believe me! It is a common name in Denmark, Norway and Sweden with small variations in the ending of the name, confused even more by complicated and varying law changes in those countries during the mid to late Victorian period that changed the structure of given surnames. (I could go into detail but it would take far too long.) Therefore I believe it is a point to consider should one come across a suitable candidate for his birth or a name in a census, for example.

Re Ostrog, yes Grant, another name connected to Le Grand and his aliases. (re A-Z, 1891 conviction).

So it was only a list Debs. No overtures on what was correct and what wasn't, though I do agree with the meaning of your reply, if the intention was to actually muddy waters, which I clearly stated at the very start, it wasn't.
Something akin to this, though far better and far more detailed has been done excellently on the subject of the name(s) of Mary Kelly, by Chris Scott, in book form. He took each possibility a few steps further in each case. As it wasn't deadly serious, as stated, it isn't a true comparison, but I am sure you see the gist of the point I make.

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

As I read that evidence, it sounds as though the police officers had each seen "Neilson" on a single occasion, one of them 14 years earlier and the other 7 years earlier.

Maybe the police had other information that they weren't in a position to prove in court, but I don't believe it's safe to convict anyone on evidence like that.

It's strange to think also, that four years later, Christian Nelson, a wanted ticket of leave man who's photo was published in the Police Gazette in 1884 for failing to report, could be mingling with police and detectives (some drafted in from other divisions) in one of the biggest police operations of this era and go unnoticed.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs, all,

I am not trying to muddy waters with this post, I promise I am not, honest Debs! .. but I thought I'd give an overview of how complicated this is...of sorts here.. it's an idea at least..
Takes a deep breath... we have..

according to the A-Z, latest edition..

Charles Le Grand, THE Le Grand alias

1) Capt. Anderson
2) Christian Briscony (possibly his real name)
3) French Colonel
4) Charles Grand
5) Charles Grant
6) Charles Colonette Grandy
7) Christian Nelson

"Danish, possibly son of a Danish diplomat or someone connected with the Danish diplomatic service".

Also that he "called himself Charles Grant in 1891" in reference to the letters conviction, NOT Grand.
Also " he did not need money at the time he did this, perhaps suggesting mental illness" This is without any reference to any incarceration due to mental illness.

Away from the A-Z.. we have

8) Charles Le Grand identified as Christian Nelson from a conviction around 30 years before this identification.
9) Identification of photographic and sketch evidence comparing Le Grand to Christian Nelson.
10) THE Charles Le Grand convicted of various offences, including larceny.
11) Another Charles Le Grand convicted of Larceny offences a la THE Le Grand in 1886 and 1887. See blue attachments and previous attachments from Criminal records in previous posts.
12) Charles Grand convicted in 1891, an alias of Charles Le Grand( as opposed to the A-Z listing of Charles Grant)
13) An Olympe Le Grand acquitted on charges of larceny in 1876
14) A Daniel Le Grand acquitted for robbery with violence in 1880
15) A Charles Dubois, an alias of a Charles Le Grand, convicted for larceny and receiving
16) George Jackson, an alias of Charles Le Grand, with certain matches from prison records in the 1900's (Debs, Rob Clack)
From other sources...

17) Michael Ostrog calling himself Le Grand (Maria, Paris archives)
18) A Le Grand or two in the Paris archives, (Maria)
19) A Croydon Charles Le Grand
20) A Southwark Charles Le Grand
21) A Charles Le Grand aged 17, born in the Channel Islands, in the 1881 census, living in Southampton (where Dubois was convicted)

22) Christian Nelson may also be called Neilson (this may also be an englishism of NeilsEn*, the common ending of a Danish name, EN instead of ON)*my suggestion
23) A Charles Neilson convicted in 1870 for wounding on board a ship (on the high seas and given 9 months)(trial was in Lancashire)
24) A Charles Nelson acquitted in 1872 of larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell.
25) A Christien Neilson convicted of larceny in 1876 (4 months) in Hull.

26) A Charles Grant acquitted of Larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell in 1869
27) A Charles Grundy convicted in 1873 of larceny (County of Southampton, Re. Dubois/Le Grande)
28) A Chas C Grandy in prison (Wormwood Scrubs) in 1891 census, born in Denmark, aged 27.

I have probably left out loads of things here.. but this gives all reading this some sort of idea of how complicated this is with so many aliases flying around. Not including all or some of the work already done by Howard, Mike, Debs, Rob, Tom, Maria, Chris Scott and many others.

best wishes

Phil

Phil, some answers to those points:

8)Neilson was convicted 1877, released on ticket of leave in 84 -Le Grand was accused of being Neilson in 1891 at his trial. That's 14 years by my reckoning.
9) If they were different men, Neilson would have had to look a lot Le Grand to be mistaken for him anyway.
10)No larceny charges for THE Le Grand that I can recall.
11)As I have explained, if Iam right about imprisonment sentences being served in full, someone convicted of 6 months imprisonmemt in November 1886 could not be out to stand in the magistrates court in March 1887.THE Le Grand was in the magistrates court and fined in March 1887.
12) He was convicted under the name Charles Grande, a name he also used for his detective agency Grande and Co. as mentioned at his 1891 trial.
13)The surnname Le Grand is not uncommon, I don't see the relevance here
14)The surname is not uncommon, I don't see the relevance here either
16) Le Grand was convicted under the name Geroge Jackson in 1908 and sentenced to 4 years penal servitude. He states at the Old Bailey trial that his real name is Charles Granday.(sic)
17) Ostrog was Dr Grant or Grand Guidon I thought? Not Le Grand
18) irrelevant, it's a common French surname
19)The 1886/87 Le Grand (not our Le Grand if my point #11 is correct
20) An innocent bystander that has nothing to do with anything apart from his name and me having Southwark on the brain.
21) If we take Christian Nielsen out of the equation, THE Le Grand consistently shows up as being born c 1852/3 in most records
22)The spelling of the surname Neilson is irrelevant surely?
23)There were loads of sailors name Neislon, some even named Christian Neilson
24)
25)
26)Charles Grant is a very common name.It was an alias of an American crook confused with Le Grand by the press in 1891 as well. This same crook also went by the alias Grandy and was wanted for a murder in the UK in 1876. His real name was Ivan Siscovitch, but he wasn't Le Grand either. He had fingers missing, unless Maria wants to try and tell me that fingers can grow back.
27) Grundy is a surname too and not uncommon.
28) This is Le Grand, convicted under the name Charles Colnette Grandy in 1889 for blackmailing MA Morris. This is one of the only records for Le Grand where the birthdate given is seriously out from 1852/3

Isn't it being made complicated by including irrelevant information? The whole purpose of research is to discount superfluous information surely, not add to it?

[Chris]

Just a reminder that the policemen who personally knew 'Christian Nelson' who was in prison from 1877 to 1884 confirmed, under oath, in a court of law, that he and 'our' Charles Le Grand were one and the same.

As I read that evidence, it sounds as though the police officers had each seen "Neilson" on a single occasion, one of them 14 years earlier and the other 7 years earlier.

Maybe the police had other information that they weren't in a position to prove in court, but I don't believe it's safe to convict anyone on evidence like that.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Phil, all,

Just a reminder that the policemen who personally knew 'Christian Nelson' who was in prison from 1877 to 1884 confirmed, under oath, in a court of law, that he and 'our' Charles Le Grand were one and the same. Also, Le Grand was not able to provide ONE WITNESS to prove that had been at liberty at any time during that 7 year period, whereas there should have been a wealth of people, not to mention documents, and it never would have reached court in the first place had he been able to show that he was not Nelson. Therefore, there really is no point in discussing the idea that Nelson and Le Grand were different people. To do so is, as Debs says, merely muddying the waters and preventing more worthwhile discussion from taking place.
Having said that, some of the stuff Phil has posted from 1886, etc., might be worth looking at in more detail, and I certainly WOULD NOT want to stop Phil or anyone from turning up more data that might relate to Le Grand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Colin, Debs,

Many thanks for this indeed.

best wishes

Phil

[Colin Roberts]

This may not be immediately obvious as Le Grand but it matches up with Le Grand's 1908 Old Bailey conviction as George Jackson that I posted about recently. That Le Grand was using this occupation and birthplace in other records is confirmed by some information found by Rob Clack today.

Here's the entire page.

(Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

See line #26:


Census of England & Wales, 1911: George Jackson (Dartmoor) (Click Image, to Enlarge in flickr)

County: Devonshire
Registration District: Tavistock
Civil Parish: (St. Petrock) Lydford
Registration Sub-District: Tavistock
Enumeration District: 28 (His Majesty's Convict Prison, Dartmoor)

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs, all,

I am not trying to muddy waters with this post, I promise I am not, honest Debs! .. but I thought I'd give an overview of how complicated this is...of sorts here.. it's an idea at least..
Takes a deep breath... we have..

according to the A-Z, latest edition..

Charles Le Grand, THE Le Grand alias

1) Capt. Anderson
2) Christian Briscony (possibly his real name)
3) French Colonel
4) Charles Grand
5) Charles Grant
6) Charles Colonette Grandy
7) Christian Nelson

"Danish, possibly son of a Danish diplomat or someone connected with the Danish diplomatic service".

Also that he "called himself Charles Grant in 1891" in reference to the letters conviction, NOT Grand.
Also " he did not need money at the time he did this, perhaps suggesting mental illness" This is without any reference to any incarceration due to mental illness.

Away from the A-Z.. we have

8) Charles Le Grand identified as Christian Nelson from a conviction around 30 years before this identification.
9) Identification of photographic and sketch evidence comparing Le Grand to Christian Nelson.
10) THE Charles Le Grand convicted of various offences, including larceny.
11) Another Charles Le Grand convicted of Larceny offences a la THE Le Grand in 1886 and 1887. See blue attachments and previous attachments from Criminal records in previous posts.
12) Charles Grand convicted in 1891, an alias of Charles Le Grand( as opposed to the A-Z listing of Charles Grant)
13) An Olympe Le Grand acquitted on charges of larceny in 1876
14) A Daniel Le Grand acquitted for robbery with violence in 1880
15) A Charles Dubois, an alias of a Charles Le Grand, convicted for larceny and receiving
16) George Jackson, an alias of Charles Le Grand, with certain matches from prison records in the 1900's (Debs, Rob Clack)
From other sources...

17) Michael Ostrog calling himself Le Grand (Maria, Paris archives)
18) A Le Grand or two in the Paris archives, (Maria)
19) A Croydon Charles Le Grand
20) A Southwark Charles Le Grand
21) A Charles Le Grand aged 17, born in the Channel Islands, in the 1881 census, living in Southampton (where Dubois was convicted)

22) Christian Nelson may also be called Neilson (this may also be an englishism of NeilsEn*, the common ending of a Danish name, EN instead of ON)*my suggestion
23) A Charles Neilson convicted in 1870 for wounding on board a ship (on the high seas and given 9 months)(trial was in Lancashire)
24) A Charles Nelson acquitted in 1872 of larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell.
25) A Christien Neilson convicted of larceny in 1876 (4 months) in Hull.

26) A Charles Grant acquitted of Larceny and receiving at Clerkenwell in 1869
27) A Charles Grundy convicted in 1873 of larceny (County of Southampton, Re. Dubois/Le Grande)
28) A Chas C Grandy in prison (Wormwood Scrubs) in 1891 census, born in Denmark, aged 27.

I have probably left out loads of things here.. but this gives all reading this some sort of idea of how complicated this is with so many aliases flying around. Not including all or some of the work already done by Howard, Mike, Debs, Rob, Tom, Maria, Chris Scott and many others.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you, I look forward to them, most appreciated. I will try and post them if you wish?

best wishes

Phil

Hello Debs,

Recd and posted herewith . Thank you for sending them. Most appreciated.

The Hampshire Advertiser (Southampton, England), Wednesday, March 19, 1879;(candlesticks and cashbox stealing)
The Hampshire Advertiser (Southampton, England), Wednesday, April 02, 1879 (Overcoat stealing)


best wishes

Phil

[mariab]

Maria, did you not read Rob's post to you on forums earlier this morning about Le Grand still being in prison the whole of 1915?

Apologies, was working and didn't visit JTRForums today. I'll look it up immediately. Looks like this settles it for Anderson.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Debs,

Thank you, I look forward to them, most appreciated. I will try and post them if you wish?

best wishes

Phil

[Debra A]

Maria, did you not read Rob's post to you on forums earlier this morning about Le Grand still being in prison the whole of 1915?

Anyway... Phil, I have two newspaper reports from the 1879 case of Legrand alias Dubois but I am having trouble posting any attachments. I will email them to you later when I get more time.