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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Yah, I'm trying to work out the nitty gritty, and not quite sure how to fit that in. I've been thinking alone 3 general lines:

    1) the "from Thomas-street to Brady street" is just to indicate direction of travel only (which fits what I've got). I don't like this, though, as Baker's Row is the more
    "main" street to use as a direction marker, etc. and it feels like dismissing the testimony out of hand. I would rather explore other options first to see if something sensible can be made of it.

    2) I've got the detail of the beat wrong (probably) and he goes up and down Thomas street, then over to Queen Anne and and down it, but he spotted the body before going up Queen Anne. Not sure I'm happy with that as Polly's body is described as being in the dark and hard to see from a distance, but that's by Cross/Lechmere who's not on patrol but walking to work. Maybe it was more visible to PC Neil as he's looking for things out of the ordinary?

    3) Another way I could have the beat wrong is that upon reaching the "Buck's Row-Queen Anne" intersection he then returns up Queen Anne back over to Thomas, and then back down to Buck's Row. That way, all portions of those northern streets are covered twice (both sides of the street) and he covers the section of Buck's Row I've left not covered. That adds another 165.8 yards (151.640 metres), which would make his patrol speed 2.8 mph, again, slightly below average walking speed. That's sort of my current favorite option, but I may have overlooked other options. If we go with that, then rather being at the red line, he's would now be just starting to head West on the cross street between Queen Anne Street And Thomas (which, funnily enough, is called Cross Street). But, that really starts threading the needle as he's going to reach the other end of Cross Street turn south on Thomas and reach Buck's Row in 1 minute, and Cross/Lechmere will only have reached the end of Queen Anne Street. However, given the margin of error in the timings, that's actually pretty close. If Cross/Lechmere leave a minute earlier, they end up passed Thomas and almost out of Buck's Row before PC Neil re-emerges out of Thomas and into Buck's Row again.

    Happy to get some suggestions. Obviously, there is the possibility the newspaper has the beat wrong, but again, I would rather not dismiss something if it actually does make sense.

    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff,

    I think it was just the way in which (smaller) streets were notated/indicated back then. In various newspaper accounts we see "Buck's Row, Thomas Street", as in, for instance, the Woodford Times of 7 September: "As the constable was walking through Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel,...". Or the Weekly Herald of the same date, which also includes: "Bucks Row is a narrow passage running out of Thomas Street, and contains…" The reason why they put it like that and not as "Buck's Row, Baker's Row" is that the stretch between Baker's Row and Thomas Street wasn't called Buck's Row (but White's Row) until a number of years before 1888, as the map below shows.

    Before I read the beat as given in the Echo of 21 September, I thought that Neil and the carmen didn't see each other because Neil came up through (the southern part of) Thomas Street from Whitechapel Road while the carmen had already passed it, but now knowing the beat as it was given in the Echo, I'm quite convinced he came from the northern side of Buck's Row and, because of what I've written above, have come to think he was either in Elizabeth Place or a little north of it in Queen Ann Street and was directly (i.e. without returning to Thomas Street) going down to Buck's Row from there when Lechmere and Paul passed Queen Ann Street. That would allow Neil to arrive at the crime spot well before Mizen could (and Thain to have come & gone).

    All the best,
    Frank
    Last edited by FrankO; 05-29-2019, 07:22 PM.
    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
      I still prefer that he is north of the bend in QA, coming south. If he is in Elizabeth Place or still going north, it means he arrives so long after the carmen leave, Mizen should be there first, and his not.
      We're on the same page here, Steve.

      Just finished the last draft of the book in the last 30 mins, just a bit of tiding up, and checking of all the hyperlinks to do.
      I look forward to it!

      All the best,
      Frank

      "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
      Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
        Mizen didn't say he saw others, but then again Mizen didn't say a lot of things.
        That's, indeed, the thing that stands out with Mizen, Dusty.

        "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
        Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

        Comment


        • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
          Hi Jeff,

          I think it was just the way in which (smaller) streets were notated/indicated back then. In various newspaper accounts we see "Buck's Row, Thomas Street", as in, for instance, the Woodford Times of 7 September: "As the constable was walking through Buck's-row, Thomas-street, Whitechapel,...". Or the Weekly Herald of the same date, which also includes: "Bucks Row is a narrow passage running out of Thomas Street, and contains…" The reason why they put it like that and not as "Buck's Row, Baker's Row" is that the stretch between Baker's Row and Thomas Street wasn't called Buck's Row (but White's Row) until a number of years before 1888, as the map below shows.

          Before I read the beat as given in the Echo of 21 September, I thought that Neil and the carmen didn't see each other because Neil came up through (the southern part of) Thomas Street from Whitechapel Road while the carmen had already passed it, but now knowing the beat as it was given in the Echo, I'm quite convinced he came from the northern side of Buck's Row and, because of what I've written above, have come to think he was either in Elizabeth Place or a little north of it in Queen Ann Street and was directly (i.e. without returning to Thomas Street) going down to Buck's Row from there when Lechmere and Paul passed Queen Ann Street. That would allow Neil to arrive at the crime spot well before Mizen could (and Thain to have come & gone).

          All the best,
          Frank
          Thanks for that Frank!

          The most sensible one to me is up Baker's Row, right into Thomas, down to Cross and cover that and back to Thomas, down to Buck's Row, over to Queen Anne and then norther to cover that E.Place, back and then on to Nichols (or he could cover Cross during his coverage of Queen Ann Street). That would have him initially enter Buck's Row from Thomas. What that would mean, though, is that he's in Buck's Row as he goes from Thomas to Queen Anne, and working out where Cross/Lechmere and Paul would be at that time will be important. If they're at the body, I would think they would have seen him. They can't be too far away though, as they have to get there, have their interaction, check her out, and then leave before he returns from his patrol of Queen Anne.

          If we go with 3 minutes for Cross/Lechmere and Paul to get to Mizen, and a minute or two for their examination of Polly and the preceding interaction (i.e. waiting for Paul to catch up), then at the time (using the above) PC Neil would look to be in the Northern end of Queen Anne Street. And, he's been in Queen Anne Street for between 3 and 4 minutes. So, it does look like this would be the squence:
          1) PC Neil exits Thomas Street into Buck's Row
          2) Goes to and enters Queen Anne Street
          3) a minute or two later, Cross/Lechmere spots Nichols, stops, hears Paul
          4) Waits for Paul and they examine Polly
          5) They head off to find a PC - at this point, PC Neil is at the top of Queen Anne (having also patrolled Elizabeth Place)
          6) Cross/Lechmere and Paul pass by Queen Anne Street and PC Neil is somewhere around Elizabeth Place and Cross Street
          7) Cross/Lechmere and Paul are close to (or have) entering Baker's Row as PC Neil exits Queen Anne Street into Buck's row
          8) Cross/Lechmere and Paul arrive at PC Mizen and PC Neil discovers Nichols.

          That seems to fit the testimonies as given, is based upon PC Neil's patrol speed of 2.5-2.8 mph (as calculated by his time and the distance of his beat, and as based upon Police procedures of the time) and Cross/Lechmere and Paul walking around 3.6 mph (based upon calculating his speed from his residence to the crime scene and using Fisherman's recreated walk time of 7 mins 7 seconds - and noting how that speed also can get him to work by 4:00, and it works for the journey to PC Mizen+examination of Polly taking "no more than 4 minutes").

          And using those bits of evidence, we end up with estimated relative locations between PC Neil and the carmen that indicate they were not in positions to see each other.

          That's really cool.

          And, if JtR was still there when PC Neil exited Thomas Street, he might have had just enough time to exit Buck's Row to the east before Cross/Lechmere and Paul enter it (particularly if he ran off, but there's noise and him being spotted to consider there). However, he could have left just a few minutes earlier, exited south into Whitechappel, for example, and missed PC Neil altogether while he was still in Thomas Street. In either case, the escape from Buck's Row looks to be as tight as the escape from Mitre Square.

          - Jeff
          Last edited by JeffHamm; 05-30-2019, 12:05 AM.

          Comment


          • Bobbies on the beat had to cover both sides of every street, just wondering do your timings take that into account?
            dustymiller
            aka drstrange

            Comment


            • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
              Bobbies on the beat had to cover both sides of every street, just wondering do your timings take that into account?
              Hi drstrange,

              In much of the circuit he doesn't have the opportunity to cover both sides, but presumably would alternate sides of the street each cycle. The smaller side streets he would presumably walk down one side and return on the other. In what I've described above, he could cover both sides of Cross, Queen Anne, and Elizabeth Place, but from Baker's Row through Thomas and into Buck's Row, he would only be on one side. But the patrol speeds are based upon the distance including both legs of those "double covered" streets if that's what you mean.

              If the distance is calculated with both sides of every street being covered, it's hard to work out how he could do that and with the large increase in distance his patrol speed would be 4-5 mph. Although having him exit Baker's Row into "White's Row" then into Thomas would allow for Thomas to be patrolled on both sides with the increase in distance from doubling that being made up for as he's not out covering Baker's Row to get to the northern entrance to Thomas for a single pass.

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                In much of the circuit he doesn't have the opportunity to cover both sides, but presumably would alternate sides of the street each cycle. The smaller side streets he would presumably walk down one side and return on the other.
                If the distance is calculated with both sides of every street being covered, it's hard to work out how he could do that
                I remember, quite a long time back, being one of a number of folk postulating this with regard to PC Long and the GSG...viz when was the apron piece first there? Our arguments were not, I seem to recall, altogether accepted...interesting that you should reach the same conclusion here...don't worry I'm not about to thread creep...just felt an old familiarity about the situation!

                Dave

                Comment


                • Looking at Monty's book,"Capturing Jack kthe Ripper" he shows the official beat map that Mizen would have covered, H division beat number 4.

                  In it all sides are covered. This was essential as locks, doors, etc. had to be checked. Obviously only one side of Brady, Bakers and Whitechapel would be covered, but the rest should be part of Neil's beat. One possible answer is that Monty also says beats could be split in half at night, so the Echo may have been printing the day time beat.

                  Or perhaps J division had a different system to H?
                  dustymiller
                  aka drstrange

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                    Looking at Monty's book,"Capturing Jack kthe Ripper" he shows the official beat map that Mizen would have covered, H division beat number 4.

                    In it all sides are covered. This was essential as locks, doors, etc. had to be checked. Obviously only one side of Brady, Bakers and Whitechapel would be covered, but the rest should be part of Neil's beat. One possible answer is that Monty also says beats could be split in half at night, so the Echo may have been printing the day time beat.

                    Or perhaps J division had a different system to H?
                    Hi drstrange,

                    Yes, Brady, Whitechapple and Baker's Row are the bits that are only covered once in the calculations. the side streets (like Winthrop, Wood's Building, Nelson Court, Court Street, the southern portion of Thomas, Cross, and Queen Anne are all covered both sides. It's just the norther section of Thomas that becomes hard to do twice if he enters Thomas from Baker's Row, but it can be done both sides if he enters Baker's Row -> Whites Row -> Thomas, and I think that's the one that ends up with a patrol speed of 2.8 mph. The above critical sections, though aren't affected by that choice and remain the same streets to consider, and the range of locations I checked were for speeds of 2.5 to 2.8, and both produce the same general outcome - PC Neil is in the Queen Anne Street section when the carmen meet and greet and leave and then PC Neil returns to Buck's Row none are the wiser.

                    - Jeff

                    Comment


                    • Hi,

                      Ok, I've just done the measurements for the above beat that covers both sides of Thomas. It's come out a bit longer than the last time I did something like this one, but I think then I didn't include the east-west portion of Thomas Street. Anyway, for this beat to be completed in the testified 30 minutes requires a patrol speed of about 3 mph (266.6 feet per minute), which is starting to get a bit on the fast side as patrols were supposed to be at 2.5 mph. But, given that's what we have, I've marked the following locations in the 2nd map. First, I've placed Nichol's body at the red dot. Now, we know that the carmen leave the body and reach PC Mizen in about 4 minutes, and based upon testimony that's about the time PC Neil finds Nichols. We'll call that time T, so at time T PC Neil is at the red dot and the carmen are at PC Mizen (not marked). Ok, at T-4 minutes, that's when Cross/Lechmere and Paul view the body (for say a minute for all their stuff, then 3 minutes to get to PC Mizen).

                      So, where is PC Neil at T-4, based upon the beat map and his beat patrol speed of 3.0 mph? He's at the solid blue dot heading out of Elizabeth Place and about to turn left and continue north up Queen Anne, away from Buck's Row.

                      Based upon PC Neil's Patrol speed, when did he exit Buck's row to enter Queen Ann initially? The distance back through Elizabeth Place and then south to Buck's row is 441 feet, which would take about 1 min 36 seconds (so at T -5 m 36s he's at the blue ring with light orange centre).

                      Where would Cross be 1 min 36 seconds before viewing the body? Well, we've estimated his walking speed at 3.6 mph earlier, and that's 316.8 feet/min. That means the most distant he could be would if all of that time was him walking, which would be 524 feet away (at the green ring with light orange centre). However, we know he waited for Paul to catch up, they had to chat and go over to the body. I've allowed for that to be up to 36 seconds, so if 36 seconds was "waiting for Paul etc" then he would be walking for a minute. So, Cross/Lechmere should be somewhere along the orange section of the indicated travel line.

                      Note, as this section of his beat seems likely to be shared regardless of the variations concerning Thomas Street, etc, then if the beat is such that he can patrol at the 2.5 mph, then at T-4 he would be at the Q in Queen Ann Street (about 7 buildings from the top end) and heading north, and clearly, with a greater distance to cover to get back in time to when he entered Queen Ann, Cross just ends up even further away. It will take PC Neil 2.6 minutes to re-enter Buck's Row. The carmen are at the body for one of those minutes, and when they pass Queen Ann PC Neil still has not passed Cross Street, and when PC Neil enters Buck's row and turns left, the carmen would be passed Thomas Street and rounding the bend for the last stretch towards Baker's Row.

                      In other words, at the slowest and the fastest patrol speeds that seem reasonable, PC Neil and the carmen are in locations that miss each other .

                      - Jeff

                      Comment


                      • Good work!

                        I'm assuming he began his beat towards the end Brady then into Whitechapel and Buck's Row was the finish of his beat.

                        Based on the fact he came from the Bethnal Green Station.
                        dustymiller
                        aka drstrange

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
                          Bobbies on the beat had to cover both sides of every street, just wondering do your timings take that into account?
                          Yes they are meant to, but if there is nothing to check such a long brick wall or open parkland such as the recreation ground in Thomas street, they may not.

                          In addition, if we take the beat for Thain as given in the Echo, there is no way he could do every bit of it every beat, if he did it in approx 30 mins. Either the Echo was wrong or he left bits of it out it .
                          We should also note that these beats were introduced in "J" division in August, according to the Echo. it has been assumed this was due to the death of Tabram, but it needs not be so. it could simply have been to temporary staffing issues.


                          Steve

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                            Hi,

                            Ok, I've just done the measurements for the above beat that covers both sides of Thomas. It's come out a bit longer than the last time I did something like this one, but I think then I didn't include the east-west portion of Thomas Street. Anyway, for this beat to be completed in the testified 30 minutes requires a patrol speed of about 3 mph (266.6 feet per minute), which is starting to get a bit on the fast side as patrols were supposed to be at 2.5 mph. But, given that's what we have, I've marked the following locations in the 2nd map. First, I've placed Nichol's body at the red dot. Now, we know that the carmen leave the body and reach PC Mizen in about 4 minutes, and based upon testimony that's about the time PC Neil finds Nichols. We'll call that time T, so at time T PC Neil is at the red dot and the carmen are at PC Mizen (not marked). Ok, at T-4 minutes, that's when Cross/Lechmere and Paul view the body (for say a minute for all their stuff, then 3 minutes to get to PC Mizen).

                            So, where is PC Neil at T-4, based upon the beat map and his beat patrol speed of 3.0 mph? He's at the solid blue dot heading out of Elizabeth Place and about to turn left and continue north up Queen Anne, away from Buck's Row.

                            Based upon PC Neil's Patrol speed, when did he exit Buck's row to enter Queen Ann initially? The distance back through Elizabeth Place and then south to Buck's row is 441 feet, which would take about 1 min 36 seconds (so at T -5 m 36s he's at the blue ring with light orange centre).

                            Where would Cross be 1 min 36 seconds before viewing the body? Well, we've estimated his walking speed at 3.6 mph earlier, and that's 316.8 feet/min. That means the most distant he could be would if all of that time was him walking, which would be 524 feet away (at the green ring with light orange centre). However, we know he waited for Paul to catch up, they had to chat and go over to the body. I've allowed for that to be up to 36 seconds, so if 36 seconds was "waiting for Paul etc" then he would be walking for a minute. So, Cross/Lechmere should be somewhere along the orange section of the indicated travel line.

                            Note, as this section of his beat seems likely to be shared regardless of the variations concerning Thomas Street, etc, then if the beat is such that he can patrol at the 2.5 mph, then at T-4 he would be at the Q in Queen Ann Street (about 7 buildings from the top end) and heading north, and clearly, with a greater distance to cover to get back in time to when he entered Queen Ann, Cross just ends up even further away. It will take PC Neil 2.6 minutes to re-enter Buck's Row. The carmen are at the body for one of those minutes, and when they pass Queen Ann PC Neil still has not passed Cross Street, and when PC Neil enters Buck's row and turns left, the carmen would be passed Thomas Street and rounding the bend for the last stretch towards Baker's Row.

                            In other words, at the slowest and the fastest patrol speeds that seem reasonable, PC Neil and the carmen are in locations that miss each other .

                            - Jeff

                            cant see the maps Jeff

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                              Hi,

                              Ok, I've just done the measurements for the above beat that covers both sides of Thomas. It's come out a bit longer than the last time I did something like this one, but I think then I didn't include the east-west portion of Thomas Street. Anyway, for this beat to be completed in the testified 30 minutes requires a patrol speed of about 3 mph (266.6 feet per minute), which is starting to get a bit on the fast side as patrols were supposed to be at 2.5 mph. But, given that's what we have, I've marked the following locations in the 2nd map. First, I've placed Nichol's body at the red dot. Now, we know that the carmen leave the body and reach PC Mizen in about 4 minutes, and based upon testimony that's about the time PC Neil finds Nichols. We'll call that time T, so at time T PC Neil is at the red dot and the carmen are at PC Mizen (not marked). Ok, at T-4 minutes, that's when Cross/Lechmere and Paul view the body (for say a minute for all their stuff, then 3 minutes to get to PC Mizen).

                              So, where is PC Neil at T-4, based upon the beat map and his beat patrol speed of 3.0 mph? He's at the solid blue dot heading out of Elizabeth Place and about to turn left and continue north up Queen Anne, away from Buck's Row.

                              Based upon PC Neil's Patrol speed, when did he exit Buck's row to enter Queen Ann initially? The distance back through Elizabeth Place and then south to Buck's row is 441 feet, which would take about 1 min 36 seconds (so at T -5 m 36s he's at the blue ring with light orange centre).

                              Where would Cross be 1 min 36 seconds before viewing the body? Well, we've estimated his walking speed at 3.6 mph earlier, and that's 316.8 feet/min. That means the most distant he could be would if all of that time was him walking, which would be 524 feet away (at the green ring with light orange centre). However, we know he waited for Paul to catch up, they had to chat and go over to the body. I've allowed for that to be up to 36 seconds, so if 36 seconds was "waiting for Paul etc" then he would be walking for a minute. So, Cross/Lechmere should be somewhere along the orange section of the indicated travel line.

                              Note, as this section of his beat seems likely to be shared regardless of the variations concerning Thomas Street, etc, then if the beat is such that he can patrol at the 2.5 mph, then at T-4 he would be at the Q in Queen Ann Street (about 7 buildings from the top end) and heading north, and clearly, with a greater distance to cover to get back in time to when he entered Queen Ann, Cross just ends up even further away. It will take PC Neil 2.6 minutes to re-enter Buck's Row. The carmen are at the body for one of those minutes, and when they pass Queen Ann PC Neil still has not passed Cross Street, and when PC Neil enters Buck's row and turns left, the carmen would be passed Thomas Street and rounding the bend for the last stretch towards Baker's Row.

                              In other words, at the slowest and the fastest patrol speeds that seem reasonable, PC Neil and the carmen are in locations that miss each other .

                              - Jeff

                              that fits in very much with my work Jeff, pity the maps are not showing, so i am having to on your words,

                              my calculations have him North of the bend in Queen Ann(Bucks Row out of sight) when the Carmen pass. i then have him arriving at the body approximately 2 minutes after that. Coincidentally the Carmen are at Mizen at approximately the same time.

                              We may be using slightly different figures, but we are reaching the same conclusions.

                              Steve



                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                                that fits in very much with my work Jeff, pity the maps are not showing, so i am having to on your words,

                                my calculations have him North of the bend in Queen Ann(Bucks Row out of sight) when the Carmen pass. i then have him arriving at the body approximately 2 minutes after that. Coincidentally the Carmen are at Mizen at approximately the same time.

                                We may be using slightly different figures, but we are reaching the same conclusions.

                                Steve


                                Hi Steve,

                                That's odd, they show up for me? If I use 2.5 mph as his patrol speed, I have him not quite at Cross Street (coming south on Queen Ann, which is just north of the bend as well. For the route as I measured it, he would be patrolling at about 3.0 mph, which is a bit fast for regulations, but I kept the 30 minute patrol time, and this version of his beat (which allows him to patrol both sides of Thomas Street) is a bit longer than when he goes up Baker's Row and enters Thomas at the top end, but that only let's him patrol one side of the street per round. I'll try posting the image again here. and see if that works.

                                Other versions of the beat are shorter, allowing him to patrol at a slower, more regulation pace, but the Queen Ann Street portion tends to be the same regardless, and that looks to be the critical portion. And what's nice, is that it looks like pretty much any of the versions produce the same conclusion, just the specific details vary a bit.

                                - Jeff

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