Lechmere validity

[Abby Normal]

Virtually nothing about the case is beyond a reasonable doubt, including the victim list. Some people even think the Torso Killer was also the Ripper, but their MOs are very different, so I believe there were two serial killers. That said, there are some very distinct things about the Ripper killings. The level of mutilation is extremely rare. Taking of organs is extremely rare. Posing the bodies with the skirts hiked up is extremely rare. Combined, that makes it probable that Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were killed by the same man. The amount of overkill to the non-canonical Martha Tabram could be the Ripper before adapting his MO, or it could be the work of another killer. Elizabeth Stride was not mutilated, but the method of killing matched. That might mean someone else was the killer, or it might mean the Ripper was interrupted before he could mutilate the body. Mary Jane Kelly was killed indoors. That might mean someone else was the killer, or it might mean the Ripper adapted his MO again to have more time with the body and/or avoid being spotted by police.

Hi Fiver
agree. I think the ripper just got lucky with mary Kelly having her own place and or knew her.

Posing the bodies with the skirts hiked up is extremely rare.

agree. which is why I include tabram and McKenzie.

[Fiver]

It's not like I know even one thing about the Ripper crimes apart from the triangle cuts and eyelids thing on one of the victims, and seeing the crime scenes, is it absolutely certain that every single crime was committed by the same person?

Honestly the crimes don't seem very unique from the miniscule amount I know... Someone who kills prostitutes (a main target of many-a-killer) with a knife (super common murder instrument), and mutilates the bodies (also not highly uncommon).

Is there a proven link that all of the victims were killed by the same hand apart from the fact it's in the Whitechapel area? Is there proof that none of them were done in by a copycat? Is it beyond reasonable doubt that it was one man and one man alone? Just curious.

Virtually nothing about the case is beyond a reasonable doubt, including the victim list. Some people even think the Torso Killer was also the Ripper, but their MOs are very different, so I believe there were two serial killers. That said, there are some very distinct things about the Ripper killings. The level of mutilation is extremely rare. Taking of organs is extremely rare. Posing the bodies with the skirts hiked up is extremely rare. Combined, that makes it probable that Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes were killed by the same man. The amount of overkill to the non-canonical Martha Tabram could be the Ripper before adapting his MO, or it could be the work of another killer. Elizabeth Stride was not mutilated, but the method of killing matched. That might mean someone else was the killer, or it might mean the Ripper was interrupted before he could mutilate the body. Mary Jane Kelly was killed indoors. That might mean someone else was the killer, or it might mean the Ripper adapted his MO again to have more time with the body and/or avoid being spotted by police.

[Michael W Richards]

What is uncommon is removing abdominal organs from three victims in a few weeks, and two of those in a public place. (Three, if we include the probably abortive attempt to do the same to Polly Nichols.)

To be fair Sam, 2 victims within almost a month for the abdominal organs, and 3 mutilations total in public venues in the same period. Now, the first 2 mutilation murders were within a 2 week period. Followed by a single cut 3 weeks later, and that same night, another mutilation murder. Then another month before another mutilation kill.

[Michael W Richards]

Of all the known credible suspects; am i correct in stating that Lechmere is the only one thus far who can be directly connected to an actual murder site?

i am aware that the jury is still out regarding Lechmere, with some being pro-Lechmere and others anti-Lechmere in terms of his validity as a suspect, but maybe looking closer at him will help to establish a more conclusive argument for either viewpoint respectively.

I've been trying to connect Lechmere to another victim, working of course with an open mind and on the basis of following where my research takes me.

What better place to start than with a suspect who was actually present at one of the murders!

so... pro & anti Lechmereians, open minded thoughts and theories please?


the rookie detective

Lechmere is on record as having found a victim, so if that's a direct connection...then Davis, Louis D, PC Watkins and Bowyer are equally "suspect".

[Sam Flynn]

Someone who kills prostitutes (a main target of many-a-killer) with a knife (super common murder instrument), and mutilates the bodies (also not highly uncommon).

What is uncommon is removing abdominal organs from three victims in a few weeks, and two of those in a public place. (Three, if we include the probably abortive attempt to do the same to Polly Nichols.)

[WallaceWackedHer]

I'm pro-Lechmere. He's the only "suspect" with the best chance at being at all the murder sites. The Eddowes site is on his way to his mother's house - the rest on his route to work. Kosminski would also be a good suspect as he lived close to all murder sites. Most of the others either have an alibi for some of the crimes or were not know to be in the area at all. I opt for Cross over Kosminski as Kosminski never displayed violent behaviour after he was put in the nut-house for threatening his sister with a knife. No recorded violence on his part is recorded and I'm sure his spoken English would have brought attention to "witnesses" as being "a foreigner" - but no menion is made of anyone with a Polish accent being someone seen talking to any of the victims.

It's not like I know even one thing about the Ripper crimes apart from the triangle cuts and eyelids thing on one of the victims, and seeing the crime scenes, is it absolutely certain that every single crime was committed by the same person?

Honestly the crimes don't seem very unique from the miniscule amount I know... Someone who kills prostitutes (a main target of many-a-killer) with a knife (super common murder instrument), and mutilates the bodies (also not highly uncommon).

Is there a proven link that all of the victims were killed by the same hand apart from the fact it's in the Whitechapel area? Is there proof that none of them were done in by a copycat? Is it beyond reasonable doubt that it was one man and one man alone? Just curious.

[Pcdunn]

When the information that Cross was found in the vicinity of Nichol's body,came to the attention of the police,he (Cross) would have,as Fisherman stated,been a person of interest.The police would then assess any information given by Cross as to his (Cross)reasons for being there.Only if sufficient cause for suspicion against Cross had ensued,would the police consider him suspect.This doesn't seem to have happened.He was never a suspect then,there is no cause to consider him suspect now,no matter how many guesses Fisherman,or others ,make.

Paul, however, was considered a person of interest. He had given an interview, said rather snide things about the police, acted as if he himself had found the body and notified the beat cop, and yet had not bothered to present himself at the police station, or at the inquest as a witness. Police had to go to his address and convince him to testify. His behavior is more suspicious than Lechmere's, at least to the authorities.

[Sam Flynn]

Could the ripper have escaped via the train line?

on the "right track" as one of his alleged letters later claimed (and underlined)

The underlined bit was specifically the word "right", which was probably a reference to the recently published theory that the killer was right handed.

[The Rookie Detective]

Could the ripper have escaped via the train line?

on the "right track" as one of his alleged letters later claimed (and underlined)

The Pinchin Street torso was found under a railway arch

As was Francis Coles

just a random thought...


TRD

[Abby Normal]

Indeed Abby, it's about as amazing how lucky Lechmere was if he was the killer.

Yes! Either way!

[FrankO]

hi el
yeah those look good for escape routes and apparently also not to run into one of the police. man he was lucky.


heard lech and bolted before lech saw or even heard him
picked the correct escape route
didn't run into any of the police
lech and paul didn't see the neck cut
nor yell bloody murder
ripper missed neils beat
by the time lech/paul reach mizzen and neil also finds the body, the ripper is well on his way safely away from the scene.

what did sugden say? the luck always ran with the ripper. and the police officer (forgotwho)- I am amazed at the mans elusiveness.

it really is amazing.

Indeed Abby, it's about as amazing how lucky Lechmere was if he was the killer.

[Harry D]

heard lech and bolted before lech saw or even heard him
picked the correct escape route
didn't run into any of the police
lech and paul didn't see the neck cut
nor yell bloody murder
ripper missed neils beat
by the time lech/paul reach mizzen and neil also finds the body, the ripper is well on his way safely away from the scene.

If he wasn't lucky, we wouldn't be talking about him today.

[Elamarna]

hi el
yeah those look good for escape routes and apparently also not to run into one of the police. man he was lucky.


heard lech and bolted before lech saw or even heard him
picked the correct escape route
didn't run into any of the police
lech and paul didn't see the neck cut
nor yell bloody murder
ripper missed neils beat
by the time lech/paul reach mizzen and neil also finds the body, the ripper is well on his way safely away from the scene.

what did sugden say? the luck always ran with the ripper. and the police officer (forgotwho)- I am amazed at the mans elusiveness.

it really is amazing.

i think there is a very good chance that the killer had left sometime before Lech arrived, if it wasn't him, that is.
And i am not going to exclude him,i think its highly unlikely, but he cannot be ruled out.

i think most serial killer probably are very lucky, thats how they get away with it often.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

or Court Street at a push, but i do prefer Woods Buildings.

Steve

hi el
yeah those look good for escape routes and apparently also not to run into one of the police. man he was lucky.


heard lech and bolted before lech saw or even heard him
picked the correct escape route
didn't run into any of the police
lech and paul didn't see the neck cut
nor yell bloody murder
ripper missed neils beat
by the time lech/paul reach mizzen and neil also finds the body, the ripper is well on his way safely away from the scene.

what did sugden say? the luck always ran with the ripper. and the police officer (forgotwho)- I am amazed at the mans elusiveness.

it really is amazing.

[Elamarna]

If Neil was actually in the upper part of Queen Ann Street when Lechmere & Paul passed Queen Ann St. on their way to Mizen, then my guess would be that Neil was somewhere in Thomas Street when the Ripper left Nichols' body on hearing Lechmere at the Brady Street end. The most sensible route would seem via Wood's Buildings into Whitechapel Road. Since no alarm would be raised for at least a minute or so before Lechmere would reach the body, there would be no reason for the Ripper to be 'detected' either during that time and after that he would be quite safely in Whitechapel Road.

or Court Street at a push, but i do prefer Woods Buildings.

Steve