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  • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Hi Steve,

    That's odd, they show up for me? If I use 2.5 mph as his patrol speed, I have him not quite at Cross Street (coming south on Queen Ann, which is just north of the bend as well. For the route as I measured it, he would be patrolling at about 3.0 mph, which is a bit fast for regulations, but I kept the 30 minute patrol time, and this version of his beat (which allows him to patrol both sides of Thomas Street) is a bit longer than when he goes up Baker's Row and enters Thomas at the top end, but that only let's him patrol one side of the street per round. I'll try posting the image again here. and see if that works.

    Other versions of the beat are shorter, allowing him to patrol at a slower, more regulation pace, but the Queen Ann Street portion tends to be the same regardless, and that looks to be the critical portion. And what's nice, is that it looks like pretty much any of the versions produce the same conclusion, just the specific details vary a bit.

    - Jeff

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    Thanks showing now.

    Have 5 variations based on the Echo account.

    And two routes suggest by others. This puts him the closest to the murder.


    Steve

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

      Thanks showing now.

      Have 5 variations based on the Echo account.

      And two routes suggest by others. This puts him the closest to the murder.


      Steve
      Hi Steve,

      Glad they're showing. This one would presumes someone else has a beat that covers Baker's Row. I have a preference for the versions that have PC Neil enter Thomas from Baker's Row but then Thomas is not covered on both sides, but it would be the only part that has that issue, so it's probably ok (as you mentioned, one side is pretty void of things to check. Most of the changes in those sections just influence the overall distance, and therefore his speed, but it looks like things are such that the carmen would miss him regardless.

      One other thing, the murder could have happened pretty much anytime. We don't know JtR was there when PC Neil started this general area and/or when Cross/Lechmere entered Buck's Row. When PC Neil found her, he mentions blood "oozing" from the throat wound, but that just means the wound was fresh, as it would be even if she was killed 20 or 30 minutes earlier, just after his first patrol. Was just reading Evans and Skinner last night, and there's a description of the Pinchin Street Torso described as the neck wound looking "fresher" than the leg wounds, and blood was "oozing" too. These allow JtR to be close, but it's not necessary that he was.

      - JtR

      Comment


      • Hi,

        I've not done a full beat measurement with this variation, but just trying to work out a way that PC Neil might enter Thomas from Baker's Row (north end of Thomas), and yet still cover the sections where there's something to check (buildings) on both sides of the street. This isn't aesthetically pleasing, but as Steve points out, much of Thomas only has one side that needs patrolling. It's just the short bit before Buck's Row that has buildings on both sides (The buildings on the north side of the east-west running portion of Thomas don't look like they face Thomas, so probably not many, if any doors, to check there as they look to be side walls).

        Anyway, something like this sort of works, but it involves him doing both sides a bit on one pass. Looks odd in isolation, but the rest of the beat is easy and this might just be the one "annoying section" if you will. The implication, though, is that something like this would suggest he might do Cross Street after entering Queen Ann (he could do on the Thomas Street pass as well, as I've been doing before), but if he does it this way, that just adds to the time he's in the critical section we've been discussing (making it more understandable how PC Neil and the carmen miss each other).

        Again, this is getting a bit focused on parts of the beat that have less and less impact on the most important time period. From the testimony we know that PC Neil finds the body between the carmen leaving and before PC Mizen arrives. My estimation of the carmen's journey time to PC Mizen is about 3 minutes, and they're walking above average speed, so PC Mizen's journey back might be a bit longer, say 3min 30 sec. Add a minute for the interaction with the carmen, and we're looking at a 7 min 30 sec time window. But, we can reduce that a bit because we know PC Neil has to have time to signal PC Thain from Brady Street, who will take a bit to get to the scene, then he has to leave to get Dr. Llewellyn, and then PC Mizen shows up. If that all takes around 2 minutes, it would suggest that PC Neil found the body at 5 min 30 seconds after the carmen left, and based upon testimony of when the meeting with PC Mizen occurred and when PC Neil found the body, suggests he found it about 4 minutes after the car men left. Now, given we're working with estimations of travel durations, distances, routes taken, non-syncronized clocks, and so forth, this is looking really good and well within expected margins of error for this kind of thing.

        And, even better, it sounds like a few of us, working independently, are all coming to the same general conclusions. That is very encouraging. Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions and contributions.

        - Jeff

        Click image for larger version

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        • Ok, I've measured out the beat including this wrinkle, keeping PC Neil on the side with buildings for patrolling Thomas Street, etc. This is slightly shorter than the alternative I posted above, but not much (ends up at a patrol speed of 2.9 mph rather than 3.0, but not quite down to 2.5 either). For consideration I've shown him doing Cross after entering Queen Ann, but there's no reason why that couldn't have been done when coming down Thomas. The beat would be the same length, but it does change some aspects of the critical time period, with the effect that if Cross Street is done starting from Queen Ann, it is even easier to explain how he and the carmen don't meet each other, but as it works even in the "worse case scenerio", that's a detail that doesn't change the conclusion.

          But, just to continue considering such details, the disturbing bit is the big "hole" along the north side between Baker's Row and Thomas Street. If we add in that section (say from Baker's Row going up to Thomas Street and back, and staying only on the north side), that adds another 473 feet, and his patrol speed would have to be 3.1 mph for the whole thing to be completed in 30 minutes, and that's an average walking speed over the whole beat.

          As I say, it's looking like these finer details are not creating problems as all of the possible solutions lead to the same conclusion, that PC Neil and the carmen didn't see each other because PC Neil was up patrolling Queen Ann street area at the time the carmen passed through Buck's Row on their way to PC Mizen, which is how PC Neil finds the body before PC Mizen has a chance to get there. All of the testimony as given creates a very understandable picture of the events, creating no contradictions, and all of that points towards the testimony being fairly accurate as given. Nice.

          - Jeff
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          • Jeff,

            how about the following to cover the gaps.
            In the first is if he enters from Queen Ann. Although it shows Cross Street as a single pass, he can criss-cross, the road is narrow only some ten foot across. The section on the southern side of Bucks Row between Court Street and Woods buildings can either be checked visually from the end points of those two roads and Winthrop street, or he can do a quick walk across from the northern side and back.
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            The second has him entering from Thomas Street, again the Southern side of Bucks Row can be covered can as suggested above. the same is true for the section between Court Street and the southern section of Thomas Street.
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            The interesting point is that at least 3 of us, working independently, using the sources, have come to a rough consensus on the beat, and Neil's probable location.

            Steve

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
              Jeff,

              how about the following to cover the gaps.
              In the first is if he enters from Queen Ann. Although it shows Cross Street as a single pass, he can criss-cross, the road is narrow only some ten foot across. The section on the southern side of Bucks Row between Court Street and Woods buildings can either be checked visually from the end points of those two roads and Winthrop street, or he can do a quick walk across from the northern side and back.
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              The second has him entering from Thomas Street, again the Southern side of Bucks Row can be covered can as suggested above. the same is true for the section between Court Street and the southern section of Thomas Street.
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              The interesting point is that at least 3 of us, working independently, using the sources, have come to a rough consensus on the beat, and Neil's probable location.

              Steve
              Hi Steve,

              Yes, those variations could work too. Again, most of the variations deal with parts of the beat that are outside the key Queen Ann Street section, so the variations tend to influence the length of the beat, and that in turn influences his estimated speed of the Patrol. So far, I've checked beats that have had a range of speeds up to about 3.1 mph and also checked the regulation speed of 2.5. That range all produces the same end result, PC Neil was up in the Queen Ann Street/Elizabeth Place section during the entire time that Cross/Lechmere and Paul are around, hence, they don't see each other. Given the regulation of 2.5 mph, I think we're starting to get into "probably not this variation" territory once the beat length gets above 1.5 mph, so I sort of question my fastest one a bit, but the conclusion is the same.

              And I agree fully, it's nice to see 3 independent "studies" converging on the same conclusion. That's pretty rare in this topic!

              - Jeff

              Comment


              • I measured out the top one of the two you posted and ended up with 1.585 miles, which makes for a patrol speed of just over 3.17 mph, which is starting to get a bit fast I think. If the incursion into White's Row is removed, then that takes out about 770 feet, which shortens the route to a speed of 2.88 mph, which is more in my comfort zone given the 2.5 regulation speed. But all the same, it places PC Neil in the same general vicinity as all the other variations. I think that conclusion is showing itself to be fairly robust against variations in the proposed beat. That's nice to see for a change.

                - Jeff

                Comment


                • Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
                  I measured out the top one of the two you posted and ended up with 1.585 miles, which makes for a patrol speed of just over 3.17 mph, which is starting to get a bit fast I think. If the incursion into White's Row is removed, then that takes out about 770 feet, which shortens the route to a speed of 2.88 mph, which is more in my comfort zone given the 2.5 regulation speed. But all the same, it places PC Neil in the same general vicinity as all the other variations. I think that conclusion is showing itself to be fairly robust against variations in the proposed beat. That's nice to see for a change.

                  - Jeff
                  What I have not posted here are some variations where he may reasonably have cut short certain sections of the Beat, which will all be published on Monday.
                  Yes the timing are starting to stretch I agree, however we must remember it's not an exact 30-minute beat, but as close to as possible.

                  At 2.5 mph (4.02 km/h) the longest variation i have worked with is 38 minutes for the beat, with an average of about 32 minutes
                  For 3mph (4.83 km/h) those figures are 32 minutes and average of 28-29minutes.

                  While the 38-minute beat may be too long, the rest all seem reasonable.

                  I would suggest any beat between 2.5-3mph is acceptable, the closer to 2.5 the better.


                  Steve

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                    What I have not posted here are some variations where he may reasonably have cut short certain sections of the Beat, which will all be published on Monday.
                    Hi Steve,

                    Before reading your quote above, I had just finished the alternative below. As you can see, it has short cuts where there was no private property (i.e. houses), which is primarily on the south side of Buck's Row between Baker's Row and the railway line directly east of the board school. As there was no private property to protect there, Neil wouldn't need to have come up all the way to Buck's Row when checking Wood's Buildings, Court Street and the southern part of Thomas Street.

                    That way the beat would be around 2217 meters (or 2424 yards), which would be covered in 30 minutes at a speed of 4.4 kph or 2,76 mph. Or in 33 minutes and 5 seconds at a speed of 2.5 mph.

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                    Is this what you have not posted (yet)?

                    All the best,
                    Frank
                    Last edited by FrankO; 05-31-2019, 05:31 PM.
                    "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                    Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                      Hi Steve,

                      Before reading your quote above, I had just finished the alternative below. As you can see, it has short cuts where there was no private property (i.e. houses), which is primarily on the south side of Buck's Row between Baker's Row and the railway line directly east of the board school. As there was no private property to protect there, Neil wouldn't need to have come up all the way to Buck's Row when checking Wood's Buildings, Court Street and the southern part of Thomas Street.

                      That way the beat would be around 2217 meters (or 2424 yards), which would be covered in 30 minutes at a speed of 4.4 kph or 2,76 mph. Or in 33 minutes and 5 seconds at a speed of 2.5 mph.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Is this what you have not posted (yet)?

                      All the best,
                      Frank
                      Very close Frank,

                      I also allow options for missing part or all of Nelson Court and Elizabeth place.
                      Of course such is pure speculation, and I have allowed for all, or only some of those reductions, on my major route suggestions.

                      It seems clear that You, Jeff and myself are all coming to some rough conclusions.

                      Steve


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Elamarna View Post

                        What I have not posted here are some variations where he may reasonably have cut short certain sections of the Beat, which will all be published on Monday.
                        Yes the timing are starting to stretch I agree, however we must remember it's not an exact 30-minute beat, but as close to as possible.

                        At 2.5 mph (4.02 km/h) the longest variation i have worked with is 38 minutes for the beat, with an average of about 32 minutes
                        For 3mph (4.83 km/h) those figures are 32 minutes and average of 28-29minutes.

                        While the 38-minute beat may be too long, the rest all seem reasonable.

                        I would suggest any beat between 2.5-3mph is acceptable, the closer to 2.5 the better.


                        Steve
                        Hi Steve,

                        I agree that there's wiggle room around the 30 minutes, and I see we have similar impressions of speed ranges. Nice work. Looking forward to your full presentation coming on Monday.

                        - Jeff

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by FrankO View Post
                          Hi Steve,

                          Before reading your quote above, I had just finished the alternative below. As you can see, it has short cuts where there was no private property (i.e. houses), which is primarily on the south side of Buck's Row between Baker's Row and the railway line directly east of the board school. As there was no private property to protect there, Neil wouldn't need to have come up all the way to Buck's Row when checking Wood's Buildings, Court Street and the southern part of Thomas Street.

                          That way the beat would be around 2217 meters (or 2424 yards), which would be covered in 30 minutes at a speed of 4.4 kph or 2,76 mph. Or in 33 minutes and 5 seconds at a speed of 2.5 mph.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	Neil's beat shorter still - 2217 m.JPG
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ID:	711714

                          Is this what you have not posted (yet)?

                          All the best,
                          Frank
                          Nice one Frank. That's pretty complete coverage of the buildings, and at 2.6mph at regulation patrol speed too.

                          - Jeff

                          Comment


                          • You've probably already covered this, but didn't PC Neil say that he was going from Thomas St to Buck's Row when he found the body? Or was that just his or the press' way of indicating direction?

                            Comment


                            • Hello Frank,for me, at least, that's the best yet!
                              dustymiller
                              aka drstrange

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                                You've probably already covered this, but didn't PC Neil say that he was going from Thomas St to Buck's Row when he found the body? Or was that just his or the press' way of indicating direction?
                                Joshua,

                                the reports differ slightly, as you would expect.however they can be seen as 3 different types.he said from Thomas street

                                "he was proceeding down Buck’s row Whitechapel, from Thomas-street,"

                                "Yesterday morning I was proceeding down Buck's-row, Whitechapel, going towards Brady-street."

                                "he was going down Buck's row, Whitechapel, from Thomas street to Brady street."


                                So yes it may have been he entered at Thomas St which we have allowed for in some variations. It could of course be directional as you say.


                                Steve

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