Ripper Facts

[John Wheat]

Hi John

I agree accuracy of witnesses is often low.

However, Lawende, PC Smith and Schwartz were considered by police at the time as credible. Each witness saw the victims shortly (15 minutes) before their deaths.

I know some other witnesses can be doubtful. What is it about the above three which doesn't seem right ?

All the best

Craig

To Craig

I'm not saying anything per say is not right. All I'm saying is that I don't think its a good idea to rule anyone out or indeed in on the strength of witnesses that may not have even seen Jack.

Cheers John

[Pcdunn]

The Schizoid Murderer, perhaps?

Why would anyone be interested in cutting up bodies in the first place! Crazy people do crazy things.

Columbo

Dr. Jekyll did the cutting up of the women's bodies (failed experiments, I imagine) in a secure location, while Mr. Hyde disposed of them around London in a reckless manner.

[Columbo]

Why would Lechmere have been interested in placing body parts in the new Scotland Yard building?

Regards, Pierre

Why would anyone be interested in cutting up bodies in the first place! Crazy people do crazy things.

Columbo

[Craig H]

Hi John

I agree accuracy of witnesses is often low.

However, Lawende, PC Smith and Schwartz were considered by police at the time as credible. Each witness saw the victims shortly (15 minutes) before their deaths.

I know some other witnesses can be doubtful. What is it about the above three which doesn't seem right ?

All the best

Craig

[John Wheat]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

To Craig H

Considering how unreliable eyewitnesses can be and that we can't be sure if any of them even saw Jack its not sensible to dismiss suspects that don't fit the description.

Cheers John

[Craig H]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

[Elamarna]

Thanks . That's exactly what i'm saying, not that Pc Harvey was supposed to have saw something in Mitre square without ever entering it, but rather that he did not detect anything during the rest of his beat which involved practically all the surrounding area but the square.

It's still possible that the man and woman Lawende Saw left the area through some other way while Pc Harvey were not able to see them anyway, of course. Let's just say that they MAY have been in the square and the man MAY have been the ripper and the woman Eddowes.

Hi

OK that is clearer.

There is a good chance that the couple were Eddowes and her killer,the point I was making earlier was simply that we cannot be sure.

Which of course is what you are indeed saying .

Steve

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

First welcome to the boards

That may be a little unfair on Harvey, his beat was only the length of Church passage, it is entirely conceivable he could have stood there and not seen anything.

regards

steve

Thanks . That's exactly what i'm saying, not that Pc Harvey was supposed to have saw something in Mitre square without ever entering it, but rather that he did not detect anything during the rest of his beat which involved practically all the surrounding area but the square.

It's still possible that the man and woman Lawende Saw left the area through some other way while Pc Harvey was elsewhere anyway, of course. Let's just say that they MAY have been in the square and the man MAY have been the ripper and the woman Eddowes.

[Elamarna]

What makes me believe that Lawende saw the murderer is that, if i'm not wrong, nor Pc Harvey nor Pc Watkins had the slightest contact with the couple he observed. This is suggestive of the fact that the couple did indeed enter Mitre Square, which, at the supposed time of the murder, was only briefly watched but not checked thoroughly by Pc Harvey.

Not enough to be sure that the man was indeed the ripper and the woman was indeed Eddowes, but still.

First welcome to the boards

That may be a little unfair on Harvey, his beat was only the length of Church passage, it is entirely conceivable he could have stood there and not seen anything.

regards

steve

[MysterySinger]

According to Lawende, the man was 5ft 7in, 5ft 8in or 5ft 9in depending what you read. Joseph Hyam Levy estimated that the man was 3 inches taller than the woman, who, if it was Eddowes would have been 5ft tall, making the man 5ft 3in.

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

Eddowes is also open to question, Lawende says his view was brief and he bases his id on the clothes she was wearing.

steve

What makes me believe that Lawende saw the murderer is that, if i'm not wrong, nor Pc Harvey nor Pc Watkins had the slightest contact with the couple he observed. This is suggestive of the fact that the couple did indeed enter Mitre Square, which, at the supposed time of the murder, was only briefly watched but not checked thoroughly by Pc Harvey.

Not enough to be sure that the man was indeed the ripper and the woman was indeed Eddowes, but still.

[Pierre]

By the way, why would I not believe in the Torso man? His calling card is totally unique, so we are doubtlessly dealing with the same killer throughout that series.

Why would Lechmere have been interested in placing body parts in the new Scotland Yard building?

Regards, Pierre

[Elamarna]

So are you saying the witnesses saw no one with the victims, or that Annie Chapman found another customer within 30 minutes or so, Eddowes serviced the one she was seen with and found another within the same timeframe and near Mitre's Square who happened to be JTR? Was Stride beatened up by a suitor and then 10 minutes or so later JTR found her in Dutsfield's Yard and killed her?

Columbo

Dear Coloumbo

I think the point is that the id of Chapman and Eddowes are both debatable:

In the case of Chapman , those who believe in an early TOD for instance would say she was long dead when Long saw her woman. I would not however and consider there is a good chance she did see Chapman.

That one is down to how reliable you find the time of death supplied by the Doctor.

Eddowes is also open to question, Lawende says his view was brief and he bases his id on the clothes she was wearing.

steve

[John G]

Ah! Well, that´s where we enter a discussion I am unwilling to take out here, just as I said before. I can only say that the Torso murders involve a very clear and extremely unusual factor that bind them together.

As always, people will of course take my word for it...

Well this post certainly grabbed my attention! Actually, I will be very interested to read your arguments concerning how the Torso murders are linked, especially if you've discovered an unusual connection. In fact, it is something I've argued myself in the past, but now I'm not so sure.

And, when you decide to post your theory, I will, as always, consider the matter carefully, and objectively!

[SirJohnFalstaff]

So are you saying the witnesses saw no one with the victims, or that Annie Chapman found another customer within 30 minutes or so, Eddowes serviced the one she was seen with and found another within the same timeframe and near Mitre's Square who happened to be JTR? Was Stride beatened up by a suitor and then 10 minutes or so later JTR found her in Dutsfield's Yard and killed her?

Columbo

I'm saying that there is no certainty about these elements:

- Description of said fellow for Chapman. She didn't know she was about to be killed, remember.
- Accuracy of victim identification for Eddowes. Witness never identified the body, only similarity of the clothes.
- Accuracy of time for Stride. and accuracy of time in all general testimony. We are at the computer age and we still get confused about time, so imagine at a time with mechanical clocks that were not in sync.