Ripper Facts

[Joshua Rogan]

We do have the report from Mitre Square of a blood stained man just before the discovery of the body, which could be related.

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?

I am not convinced the apparent sighting in Church Lane is connected, the timings seem far too tight and it is away, not towards Mitre Square.

Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

[Elamarna]

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

All certainly possible,
it would indeed fit with the reports of Cox and Sagar would it not?

Steve

[MsWeatherwax]

I can see how Jack minimised blood stains on the earlier killings as he strangled them first so there was no spurting blood. However, wouldn't the Kelly-murder blood stains have been obvious as he walked through the streets ?

Craig

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

[Elamarna]

Craig,

I think him being covered in blood depends on several things.


The only way he would not have obvious blood stains on him was:

1. He took a change of clothing, unlikely!

2. He removed all or some of this clothing for the attack. possible!

In any event an outer coat would cover much, and the hands in the pockets to hide them.

We do have the report from Mitre Square of a blood stained man just before the discovery of the body, which could be related.

Again we have a problem with the TOD in that case, it is not insurmountable but it is tight and problematic with a man walking out in broad daylight, stained with blood and only seen once.

The traditional TOD around 3-4am, makes escape in the dark far easier.


I am not convinced the apparent sighting in Church Lane is connected, the timings seem far too tight and it is away, not towards Mitre Square.

Even if it is the killer, your suggestion he is heading home is not necessary correct, especially if he is still in a highly charged state having not performed any mutilations!

I agree with the suggestion that he is heading home in Goulston street, it does make sense.

However we cannot be sure from which direction he enters Goulston street

Therefore we have 3 options here do we not?

1. He lives in Goulston Street.
2. He is heading North. towards Wentworth street.
3. He is heading South towards Whitechapel high street.

I can see arguments for all 3.

Steve

[Craig H]

I drew on a Google Map and hope to upload it, but file was too large to attach. Can you visualise the following ?

If we assume the Church Lane sighting was of Jack (which is likely as the description was similar to Lawende and PC Smith), then it may suggest Jack was heading home. So we have an arrow from Berner St up to Church Lane. He then changed his mind and moved to Mitre Square.

Similarly, we have another arrow from Mitre Square up to Goulston Street where Jack left the apron. Again this suggests he was heading home.

Both these arrows meet around Flower & Dean Street or Thrawl Street. Does this suggest Jack lived somewhere in that broad area ?

The second question I have is did Jack live close to Miller's Court - other wise how did he walk home covered in blood from the Kelly mutilation ?

I can see how Jack minimised blood stains on the earlier killings as he strangled them first so there was no spurting blood. However, wouldn't the Kelly-murder blood stains have been obvious as he walked through the streets ?

Craig

[Paddy]

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.

From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat.

Interestingly there was a pub half way up at 21 Church Lane (now White Church Lane) called The Horse and Groom (now called The Bar Locks).
It was ran in 1891 by an Isaac Abrahams (not Kozs' brother) and he ran a charity to help young Jewish emigrants train to become Hairdressers.

Pat.....

[GUT]

I would have to say it's common, perhaps not typical. I suspect there are many more who are unmarried, but have long-term or live in partners.

Of course, we haven't even touched on the Karla Homolkas, Myra Hindley or Rose Wests of the world...women who not only knew what their husbands were up to, but actively participated in rape, sexual assault and murder. His name escapes me at present, but one of the most horrific, sexually sadistic serial killers I've ever read about used to kidnap and torture women in a trailer next to his house, and his wife joined in.

I'm sure there are others who knew/know what their husbands are, but are too terrified to do anything about it.

In other words, I personally think there's every chance he was married. At the end of the day, he had to be plausible enough to persuade women who's trade would already make them a bit cagey to go into dark alleys with him...even though they were supposedly terrified of the serial killer that was on the loose.

I think there's a good chance he was reasonably presentable, if not physically attractive, spoke nicely and had a pleasant demeanor (briefly). Or, possibly that he was known to these women and gave them no cause for concern.

I suspect many others fall into category of " suspicious but too intimidated to say anything or ask anything".

[MsWeatherwax]

Interesting to read about these serial killers who were married.

I'm not across this topic.

Is this then typical of serial murderers ? Or are they more likely to be unmarried and the above are the exception ?

Craig

I would have to say it's common, perhaps not typical. I suspect there are many more who are unmarried, but have long-term or live in partners.

Of course, we haven't even touched on the Karla Homolkas, Myra Hindley or Rose Wests of the world...women who not only knew what their husbands were up to, but actively participated in rape, sexual assault and murder. His name escapes me at present, but one of the most horrific, sexually sadistic serial killers I've ever read about used to kidnap and torture women in a trailer next to his house, and his wife joined in.

I'm sure there are others who knew/know what their husbands are, but are too terrified to do anything about it.

In other words, I personally think there's every chance he was married. At the end of the day, he had to be plausible enough to persuade women who's trade would already make them a bit cagey to go into dark alleys with him...even though they were supposedly terrified of the serial killer that was on the loose.

I think there's a good chance he was reasonably presentable, if not physically attractive, spoke nicely and had a pleasant demeanor (briefly). Or, possibly that he was known to these women and gave them no cause for concern.

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Pcdunn;382063]Herb Baumeister, a successful businessman in Indiana, was married with a family. When they were away, he passed the time by picking up young men, taking them back to his place for a swim, and murdering them in the pool. He disposed of the evidence by burying it on the large estate surrounding his home.
It was a scandal when the truth was discovered.

Now his home and estate are said to be haunted by the ghosts of his victims (a common fate of "murder houses" in the United States-- say, I like "murder houses"; I hadn't ever heard it before coming to this site.)

Interesting. Cultural phenomena created after murders. Like ripper walks. And myths. It was the same in ancient Greece and Rome.

Regards, Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Hi Craig,

Not all serial killers are unmarried. In Britain Dr. Palmer had a wife (who was among his victims). Christie too had a wife whom he murdered. George Joseph Smith was a bigamist, but he had one "wife" or lover he kept coming home to after his "business" trips. In France, Landru had a family with children (they changed their name after his conviction). I believe Peter Kurten also had a family, but I'm not sure.

Jeff

Herb Baumeister, a successful businessman in Indiana, was married with a family. When they were away, he passed the time by picking up young men, taking them back to his place for a swim, and murdering them in the pool. He disposed of the evidence by burying it on the large estate surrounding his home.
It was a scandal when the truth was discovered.
Now his home and estate are said to be haunted by the ghosts of his victims (a common fate of "murder houses" in the United States-- say, I like "murder houses"; I hadn't ever heard it before coming to this site.)

[Abby Normal]

If it's an authentic sighting of the Stride killer and the time was accurate, it would mean that the same man did not kill Eddowes - he couldn't have got there within the necessary time window.

All the hue and cry heads south from Commercial Street, while the killer sits on a doorstep north of Commercial Street.

"At ABOUT half past one." and it's close enough in time as we all know time keeping was sketchy anyway back then.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi GUT

I previously posted a summary I'd found of witness statements at

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9592&highlight=Witness

Lawrende saw Eddowes with a man (who seemed to be a client) 10 minutes before she was found dead. Major Henry Smith believed he was a credible witness. Robert Anderson said Lawende was the only man who saw the killer.

PC William Smith described a man (client ?) with Stride 10 minutes before she died.

My u der standing us these two are regarded as most credible witnesses.

Craig

I don't think Lawende was ever mentioned. Some believe it was Lawende and others Schwartz; I think there's a decent case to suggest it was neither.

PC Smith's man and Lawende's man were unlikely to have been the same person.

Lawende is certainly a credible witness as is PC Smith, I would lean slightly towards PC Smith in that he had a better look at the woman.

Either way, it's not a fact that Jack was English, around 5'7, stocky build.

[Craig H]

North Eastern Daily Gazette, 1:st of October 1888:

"A man says he saw an individual sitting on some steps in Church lane at half past one this morning, wiping his hands, concealing his face meanwhile."

Thanks Fisherman

I also found this on the Casebook site

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.

From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat.



It is a closer fit to other witness description.

Craig

[Pierre]

Hi Wigngown

Sorry for late response

I understand Sutcliffe had familiar. Are most serial murderers single ? Was Sutcliffe the exception ?

Craig

Hi,

John Wayne Gacy was married. And Mikhail Popkov was married:

Mikhail Popkov was born on March 7, 1964 in Russia.

He worked as a policeman before later becoming a security guard. He has a wife and a daughter. His wife was also in the police and provided an alibi for Popkov several times. It has been speculated that Popkov had been targeting women who resembled his reportedly alcoholic mother who abused him in his childhood.

From 1992 to 2000, Popkov is suspected of murdering up to 29 women. He would pick up slightly intoxicated women who were just leaving bars or parties, using his police car and uniform to gain the victims' trust in some of the murders. Popkov would then drive them to the forest where he raped and murdered them. The victims were reportedly axed, stabbed, or strangled to death.

One of the victims was decapitated and another's heart had been ripped out. He would rape the victims after they were deceased as well. One of Popkov's victims survived his attack and later identified a photo of him. However, police chose to believe Popkov's wife, who had provided an alibi. Popkov claimed he stopped killing when he became impotent and contracted syphilis.

He had been labeled "The Wednesday Murderer" by police, referring to the day when many of the bodies were found.

He was arrested on June 23, 2012 when he went to Vladivostok to buy a car[after having his DNA sampled, along with 3,500 other police officers. He was suspected of killing at least 29 women, 25 of whom were aged 19 to 28 and four who were aged 35 to 40. All of the victims were residents of Angarsk, Irkutsk Oblast. He confessed to 24 murders and was later charged with them on October 31, 2013.

Popkov was sentenced to life in prison in January 2015 after being found guilty of murdering 22 women and the attempted murder of 2 others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Popkov

And here are some more married serial killers: http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/rea...05aa3a00d29244

Regards, Pierre

[Bridewell]

....and wearing a peaked cap.

probably authentic independent sighting as it came out in the press before any of the other witness descriptions!

If it's an authentic sighting of the Stride killer and the time was accurate, it would mean that the same man did not kill Eddowes - he couldn't have got there within the necessary time window.

All the hue and cry heads south from Commercial Street, while the killer sits on a doorstep north of Commercial Street.