Ripper Facts

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you.

Yes - I looked at the Long sighting for Chapman, but - like you - thought there were too many questions. The others appear a stronger fit.

Also agree with you on whether Schwartz is credible. As you say, people seem divided on it.

Your comments on PC Smith spending a lot of time with Stride ..... do you mean Marshall (who saw someone an hour before the murder) ? PC Smith's observation was about 15 - 30 minutes before her death.

All the best

Craig

On the issue of Smith, his report is based at 12.30.
Blackwell suggests a time of death of about 11.55 approx. However this has been hotly debated.

Even if we take Schwartz and his time of about 12.45 as the time of the attack. And he being the interruption rather than Louis Diemschutz, we still have a period of about 15minutes in which the killer is just chatting.
I personally don't see that, of course it is just a feeling, so can be completely wrong on that, which am happy to accept.

Steve

[Craig H]

Hi Craig,

My view on those 3

Lawende does appear to be highly regarded by the police, and it is probably a reasonable description, the question is was the woman Eddowes?
I would suggest a high degree of probability she was, and that the man was the Killer

P.C. Smith, one would assume the description is accurate, the issues here are again the Id of the woman and the time.
If the woman was stride, the next question is? Was the man seen with her the killer?

This is of course impossible to say, and it revolves around her time of death. If the conventional time, then he is with Stride for a considerable time before killing her, which while not ruling him out does raise other questions.
The timing of her death has recently been debated with some heat on the boards.

Schwartz is a witness who divides opinion, some will argue he is very important, others that he was not. Exactly what the police made of him is hard to say. His non appearance at the inquest can be taken to support both points of view.
If he is telling the truth, he almost certainly saw the killer of Stride, it then goes to is Stride a victim of JtR. That again is a very contentious issue is it not? and certainly not for this thread I think.

There are differences between the 3 description, but there is a general agreement on many issues has you point out.

Note you do not mention Elizabeth Long, the question of did she see Chapman will be argued by many because of Dr Phillips and his TOD.

Again that’s another thread!

However her description is of an older man, it is very vague at best, even the high estimate does not help:

"appeared to be a little taller than deceased".

Chapman was 5ft tall, so that does not help, was the man stooping, bending, or standing upright? She said "appeared" so maybe not sure.


How far that gets us I am not sure

Steve

Hi Steve,

Good to hear from you.

Yes - I looked at the Long sighting for Chapman, but - like you - thought there were too many questions. The others appear a stronger fit.

Also agree with you on whether Schwartz is credible. As you say, people seem divided on it.

Your comments on PC Smith spending a lot of time with Stride ..... do you mean Marshall (who saw someone an hour before the murder) ? PC Smith's observation was about 15 - 30 minutes before her death.

All the best

Craig

[Craig H]

Bingo!
And I would add Marshall to that list.

All describe a man with a peaked cap which ties it all together. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

This also seems to have made an impression on abberline. See my sig.

Hi Abby,

Yes - Marshall certainly seems to have a similar description. What's your thoughts on the witness occurring at 11.45 p.m, which is an hour before PC Smith's observation around 12.45 a.m and her death around 1.00 a.m. ? If the time is correct, then JTR would have been with Stride for an hour.

I know it's hard to be specific about times back then, as people less likely to have a watch, etc.

Do you think Marshall had the time wrong ? Or JTR met her and then came back later ? Or were they together that length of time ?

All the best

Craig

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry

Always good to read your posts ...... is that John Cleary ??

Craig

Yes. But his name was really John Arnold.

[Craig H]

Most of the men in Whitechapel 1888 looked like this. Good list but I would only discount suspects that were so outwardly different (Tumblety for example) but most of the suspects fit these descriptions. The PC's probably most accurate because of his training and constant vigilance.

Columbo

Hi Columbo

Yes --- the description could fit a lot of people --- also think you're right about PC Smith's description being accurate due to his training.

All the best

Craig

[Columbo]

No, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is/are fictional characters. I just claim him/them as my favorite suspect to provide levity on the board (sometimes it works.)

But on a metaphorical level-- well, who can tell, really?

What's interesting is that Richard Mansfield, the American actor, was doing a Jekyl and Hyde play during the murders. I think he was mentioned as a suspect as well.

I thought Pierre was on the board for levity? Kidding, kidding

Columbo

[Craig H]

Hi Jerry

Always good to read your posts ...... is that John Cleary ??

Craig

[Pcdunn]

Is he on the suspect list too?

Columbo

No, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is/are fictional characters. I just claim him/them as my favorite suspect to provide levity on the board (sometimes it works.)

But on a metaphorical level-- well, who can tell, really?

[jerryd]

How does this description tally?

He was a young man, apparently between twenty-five and twenty-eight years of age. He was short, his height being about 5 ft. 4in. He was of medium build, and weighed about 140 lb. He was light-complexioned, had a small fair moustache and blue eyes. On his left cheek was an inflamed spot, which looked as if a boil had lately been there and was healing. He wore a dark coat and waistcoat. His shirt was not seen, the space at the throat being covered by a dirty white handkerchief tied about his neck. His trousers were dark velveteen, so soiled at the knees as to indicate that he blacked shoes. His hat was a round, black, stiff felt. He walked with a shuffle and spoke in the usual fashion of the developing citizens of Whitechapel, whom, in all respects, he resembled.

This man was in fact 28 years old in 1888 and also fits the description of Blotchy man. [this description was in 1889, but the boil may indicate a previous skin condition] He may have carried a bundle of newspapers around with him as he was a news vendor at Charing Cross Post Office. He also announced the finding of a body in Back Church Lane two days before it was actually placed under the arches.

[Abby Normal]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

Bingo!
And I would add Marshall to that list.

All describe a man with a peaked cap which ties it all together. The ripper was wearing a peaked cap the night of the double event.

This also seems to have made an impression on abberline. See my sig.

[Columbo]

Dr. Jekyll did the cutting up of the women's bodies (failed experiments, I imagine) in a secure location, while Mr. Hyde disposed of them around London in a reckless manner.

Is he on the suspect list too?

Columbo

[Columbo]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

Most of the men in Whitechapel 1888 looked like this. Good list but I would only discount suspects that were so outwardly different (Tumblety for example) but most of the suspects fit these descriptions. The PC's probably most accurate because of his training and constant vigilance.

Columbo

[jerryd]

Ah! Well, that´s where we enter a discussion I am unwilling to take out here, just as I said before. I can only say that the Torso murders involve a very clear and extremely unusual factor that bind them together.

As always, people will of course take my word for it...

I think I know what you're talking about, and I agree. I'm just not convinced on the Lechmere angle at this point. You know I respect your research though.

JerryD

[Elamarna]

Hi Craig,

My view on those 3

Lawende does appear to be highly regarded by the police, and it is probably a reasonable description, the question is was the woman Eddowes?
I would suggest a high degree of probability she was, and that the man was the Killer

P.C. Smith, one would assume the description is accurate, the issues here are again the Id of the woman and the time.
If the woman was stride, the next question is? Was the man seen with her the killer?

This is of course impossible to say, and it revolves around her time of death. If the conventional time, then he is with Stride for a considerable time before killing her, which while not ruling him out does raise other questions.
The timing of her death has recently been debated with some heat on the boards.

Schwartz is a witness who divides opinion, some will argue he is very important, others that he was not. Exactly what the police made of him is hard to say. His non appearance at the inquest can be taken to support both points of view.
If he is telling the truth, he almost certainly saw the killer of Stride, it then goes to is Stride a victim of JtR. That again is a very contentious issue is it not? and certainly not for this thread I think.

There are differences between the 3 description, but there is a general agreement on many issues has you point out.

Note you do not mention Elizabeth Long, the question of did she see Chapman will be argued by many because of Dr Phillips and his TOD.

Again that’s another thread!

However her description is of an older man, it is very vague at best, even the high estimate does not help:

"appeared to be a little taller than deceased".

Chapman was 5ft tall, so that does not help, was the man stooping, bending, or standing upright? She said "appeared" so maybe not sure.


How far that gets us I am not sure

Steve

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

I do think that the "shabby genteel guy" is the right one.