Ripper Facts

[Pierre]

By the way, why would I not believe in the Torso man? His calling card is totally unique, so we are doubtlessly dealing with the same killer throughout that series.

Why would Lechmere have been interested in placing body parts in the new Scotland Yard building?

Regards, Pierre

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

Eddowes is also open to question, Lawende says his view was brief and he bases his id on the clothes she was wearing.

steve

What makes me believe that Lawende saw the murderer is that, if i'm not wrong, nor Pc Harvey nor Pc Watkins had the slightest contact with the couple he observed. This is suggestive of the fact that the couple did indeed enter Mitre Square, which, at the supposed time of the murder, was only briefly watched but not checked thoroughly by Pc Harvey.

Not enough to be sure that the man was indeed the ripper and the woman was indeed Eddowes, but still.

[MysterySinger]

According to Lawende, the man was 5ft 7in, 5ft 8in or 5ft 9in depending what you read. Joseph Hyam Levy estimated that the man was 3 inches taller than the woman, who, if it was Eddowes would have been 5ft tall, making the man 5ft 3in.

[Elamarna]

What makes me believe that Lawende saw the murderer is that, if i'm not wrong, nor Pc Harvey nor Pc Watkins had the slightest contact with the couple he observed. This is suggestive of the fact that the couple did indeed enter Mitre Square, which, at the supposed time of the murder, was only briefly watched but not checked thoroughly by Pc Harvey.

Not enough to be sure that the man was indeed the ripper and the woman was indeed Eddowes, but still.

First welcome to the boards

That may be a little unfair on Harvey, his beat was only the length of Church passage, it is entirely conceivable he could have stood there and not seen anything.

regards

steve

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

First welcome to the boards

That may be a little unfair on Harvey, his beat was only the length of Church passage, it is entirely conceivable he could have stood there and not seen anything.

regards

steve

Thanks . That's exactly what i'm saying, not that Pc Harvey was supposed to have saw something in Mitre square without ever entering it, but rather that he did not detect anything during the rest of his beat which involved practically all the surrounding area but the square.

It's still possible that the man and woman Lawende Saw left the area through some other way while Pc Harvey was elsewhere anyway, of course. Let's just say that they MAY have been in the square and the man MAY have been the ripper and the woman Eddowes.

[Elamarna]

Thanks . That's exactly what i'm saying, not that Pc Harvey was supposed to have saw something in Mitre square without ever entering it, but rather that he did not detect anything during the rest of his beat which involved practically all the surrounding area but the square.

It's still possible that the man and woman Lawende Saw left the area through some other way while Pc Harvey were not able to see them anyway, of course. Let's just say that they MAY have been in the square and the man MAY have been the ripper and the woman Eddowes.

Hi

OK that is clearer.

There is a good chance that the couple were Eddowes and her killer,the point I was making earlier was simply that we cannot be sure.

Which of course is what you are indeed saying .

Steve

[Craig H]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

[John Wheat]

A number of the above posts have raised valid concerns about whether the witnesses actually saw JTR, and then the credibility of their descriptions.

While acknowledging that, I think it’s possible to identify the more credible descriptions and seek common characteristics.

My understanding is the most credible witnesses were Lawende, P.C William Smith and Israel Schwartz.

Catherine Eddowes

Joseph Lawende

Lawende saw a woman he later identified as Eddowes talking with a man, who appears to be a client, at 1.35 a.m. This is likely to be the Ripper as Eddowes’ body was discovered 15 minutes later at 1.45 a.m.

Lawende described the man as :

• 30 years old
• 5 foot 7 inches tall
• Fair complexion
• Mustache
• Medium build
• Wearing a pepper and salt colored jacket which fits loosely
• A grey cloth cap with a peak of the same color
• Has a reddish handkerchief knotted around his neck
• Has the appearance of being a sailor

Elizabeth Stride

Two people both claimed to see Stride with a man shortly before she was found dead.

P.C. William Smith

At 12:35am, PC William Smith saw Elizabeth Stride with a man in Berner Street, opposite the International Working Men’s Educational Club, a few yards away from were her body would be discovered.

PC Smith described the man as :

• ‘Respectable appearance’
• About 28 years old
• 5ft 7in
• Of dark complexion, with a small dark moustache.
• Wore a hard felt deerstalker hat of dark colour and a black diagonal cutaway coat and dark trousers
• Was carrying a parcel wrapped in newspaper approximately 6 or 8 inches in width and 18 inches in length

Israel Schwartz

Israel Schwartz saw Elizabeth Stride being accosted at 12.45 a.m and her body was discovered 15 minutes later, at 1.00 a.m.

Schwartz described the man as:

• About 30 years old
• 5' 5" tall
• A fair complexion
• Dark hair and small brown moustache
• Dressed in an overcoat and an old black felt hat with a wide brim

The police rated this whiteness highly.

Consistent description

If these are the three most credible witnesses, it would suggest the Ripper was :

• 28 – 35 y.o
• About 5 ft 7 in
• Fair complexion with dark hair and a small brown moustache
• Wore an overcoat and a peak hat

This is not a lot of information. However, does it provide enough information to dismiss some suspects and focus attention on those that fit better to this description ?

To Craig H

Considering how unreliable eyewitnesses can be and that we can't be sure if any of them even saw Jack its not sensible to dismiss suspects that don't fit the description.

Cheers John

[Craig H]

Hi John

I agree accuracy of witnesses is often low.

However, Lawende, PC Smith and Schwartz were considered by police at the time as credible. Each witness saw the victims shortly (15 minutes) before their deaths.

I know some other witnesses can be doubtful. What is it about the above three which doesn't seem right ?

All the best

Craig

[Columbo]

Why would Lechmere have been interested in placing body parts in the new Scotland Yard building?

Regards, Pierre

Why would anyone be interested in cutting up bodies in the first place! Crazy people do crazy things.

Columbo

[Pcdunn]

The Schizoid Murderer, perhaps?

Why would anyone be interested in cutting up bodies in the first place! Crazy people do crazy things.

Columbo

Dr. Jekyll did the cutting up of the women's bodies (failed experiments, I imagine) in a secure location, while Mr. Hyde disposed of them around London in a reckless manner.

[John Wheat]

Hi John

I agree accuracy of witnesses is often low.

However, Lawende, PC Smith and Schwartz were considered by police at the time as credible. Each witness saw the victims shortly (15 minutes) before their deaths.

I know some other witnesses can be doubtful. What is it about the above three which doesn't seem right ?

All the best

Craig

To Craig

I'm not saying anything per say is not right. All I'm saying is that I don't think its a good idea to rule anyone out or indeed in on the strength of witnesses that may not have even seen Jack.

Cheers John

[CommercialRoadWanderer]

I do think that the "shabby genteel guy" is the right one.

[Elamarna]

Hi Craig,

My view on those 3

Lawende does appear to be highly regarded by the police, and it is probably a reasonable description, the question is was the woman Eddowes?
I would suggest a high degree of probability she was, and that the man was the Killer

P.C. Smith, one would assume the description is accurate, the issues here are again the Id of the woman and the time.
If the woman was stride, the next question is? Was the man seen with her the killer?

This is of course impossible to say, and it revolves around her time of death. If the conventional time, then he is with Stride for a considerable time before killing her, which while not ruling him out does raise other questions.
The timing of her death has recently been debated with some heat on the boards.

Schwartz is a witness who divides opinion, some will argue he is very important, others that he was not. Exactly what the police made of him is hard to say. His non appearance at the inquest can be taken to support both points of view.
If he is telling the truth, he almost certainly saw the killer of Stride, it then goes to is Stride a victim of JtR. That again is a very contentious issue is it not? and certainly not for this thread I think.

There are differences between the 3 description, but there is a general agreement on many issues has you point out.

Note you do not mention Elizabeth Long, the question of did she see Chapman will be argued by many because of Dr Phillips and his TOD.

Again that’s another thread!

However her description is of an older man, it is very vague at best, even the high estimate does not help:

"appeared to be a little taller than deceased".

Chapman was 5ft tall, so that does not help, was the man stooping, bending, or standing upright? She said "appeared" so maybe not sure.


How far that gets us I am not sure

Steve

[jerryd]

Ah! Well, thatīs where we enter a discussion I am unwilling to take out here, just as I said before. I can only say that the Torso murders involve a very clear and extremely unusual factor that bind them together.

As always, people will of course take my word for it...

I think I know what you're talking about, and I agree. I'm just not convinced on the Lechmere angle at this point. You know I respect your research though.

JerryD