Ripper Facts

[Craig H]

Craig, try looking at newspapers in Staffordshire, from towns near where Neale's death took place. Can't guarantee you'll find anything, but news articles are great possibilities for learning more details re a death or an investigation.

Your friendly librarian,

Many thanks friendly librarian ..... can you also tell others to keep the noise down .... I'm trying to read ...

Craig

[Pierre]

I am curious Pierre, what would your ideas be if his purpose had been to deliberately leave those gifts on the murders sites?

Best wishes,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I don´t think he did.

Best wishes, Pierre

[Pcdunn]

Craig, try looking at newspapers in Staffordshire, from towns near where Neale's death took place. Can't guarantee you'll find anything, but news articles are great possibilities for learning more details re a death or an investigation.

Your friendly librarian,

[Mayerling]

Something interesting on Benjamin Neale's death certificate from June 1899.

He died at Kinver, Staffordshire - which is where his brother Raglan lived as a publican. Maybe Benjamin went to live with his brother.

Benjamin's occupation is listed as "chemist". This is the the same occupation his father Thomas had when he died in 1886. Benjamin's brothers - Duncan and Moses - also both listed their occupation as "chemist and veterinary surgeon" but lived at their home town of Sherston, Wiltshire.

However, what is interesting is the cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs”

The Informant section records “Certificate received from W.H. Phillips, Coroner for Staffordshire. Inquest held 13 June"

Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?

Does this mean the death was suspicious ? The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.

Any ideas on where to look to find any details from the inquest ? I suspect the records don't exist now ?

Hi Craig,

Honestly I could not say where such inquest records are (if they exist), but I suspect they'd be in Staffordshire, where the coroner was (and where the inquest probably was).

Accidental deaths or suspicious ones inevitably required an inquest. I have been looking occasionally at a set of deaths involving two brothers, Philip Carpenter and Lant Carpenter, both of whom died within a year of each other - presumably both died suicides. Philip died first, of poisoning, in January 1891, and Lant died by a gun shot wound about fifteen months later. I know there was an inquest on Lant's death, as I saw some reports of it in the newspapers. I have never seen the actual inquest papers though.

Jeff

[Craig H]

Benjamin Neale - death certificate

Something interesting on Benjamin Neale's death certificate from June 1899.

He died at Kinver, Staffordshire - which is where his brother Raglan lived as a publican. Maybe Benjamin went to live with his brother.

Benjamin's occupation is listed as "chemist". This is the the same occupation his father Thomas had when he died in 1886. Benjamin's brothers - Duncan and Moses - also both listed their occupation as "chemist and veterinary surgeon" but lived at their home town of Sherston, Wiltshire.

However, what is interesting is the cause of death is “died from accidental injuries caused by fall down stairs”

The Informant section records “Certificate received from W.H. Phillips, Coroner for Staffordshire. Inquest held 13 June"

Would it have been unusual to have an inquest for this death ?

Does this mean the death was suspicious ? The reason of death of falling down stairs sounds strange.

Any ideas on where to look to find any details from the inquest ? I suspect the records don't exist now ?

[Mayerling]

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

I am curious Pierre, what would your ideas be if his purpose had been to deliberately leave those gifts on the murders sites?

Best wishes,

Jeff

[Craig H]

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

Hi Pierre

The gifts ideas was not mine - someone else had mentioned it before but it makes sense to me.

I think Jack gave small gifts or was generous to his victims as a way to gain their confidence, or alternatively he knew them.

I don't think he deliberately left it at the murder sites

Craig

[Craig H]

Hi Dusty
This is interesting. What is the source of this image ?
It looks like a record of University graduates ???
This suggests Benjamin did not complete his University degree.
Are you able find out where John Orford studied Medicine ?
I think Benjamin may be the "Morford" mentioned in Sugden's book. Maybe they studied together ?
All the best
Craig

[drstrange169]

I couldn't find him at the Uni but, I don't know how through their records are or if he finished his course..

[Tom_Wescott]

I've not read anything about a red handkerchief being found in Kelly's room. Only that Hutch said he saw her given one. Polly's birthday was a week before her death and I'd wager she had received or purchased her used (not new) bonnet at that time. A cigarette case could have been stolen or received in lieu of payment from any client at any time. Nothing to suggest the victims received gifts. However, given that was the idea, I'm surprised cachous weren't mentioned.

Having said that, Craig's line of enquiry is very strong. A failed surgeon or surgical student is completely sensible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[MsWeatherwax]

Hypothetically speaking - because he had no further use for them.

Not so much with the smaller items, but I'd say a man walking through Whitechapel shortly after a murder holding a woman's bonnet might attract the wrong kind of attention.

If you want to get *really* esoteric about it, I remember a Pagan group in my teens who believed that if you took something from nature, you should leave something in 'payment' (if they cut plants for ritual purposes, they would pour milk around the base of the stem). Before anyone says it, I don't believe that's what he was doing and no...I have no idea why a plant would want milk.

[Pierre]

It’s probably time to wrap up this thread as it’s gone as fare as it can.

What I tried to do was focus on what we know, or think we know, about the Ripper and use this to try and narrow down the list of potential persons of interest.

Witness statements (in particular PC Smith, Lawende and Marshall) suggest Jack was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache and not working class.

It appears he lived or worked locally and knew the victims as they all lived close to each other. Many others have said he must have known the area well.

I think he must have had good social skills to be able for his victims to be comfortable with him (as seen in witness statements).

I also think he gave them gifts (such as the cigarette case, bonnet and the red handkerchief)

From some of the coroners and posts from others, I think he had surgical skills. Like others, I find it hard to believe he could have made the cuts and remove organs in the dark in such short time without previous surgical experience. Also, I think his “purpose” was to remove organs and show off his skills.

I identified Benjamin Neale who met the above criteria.

That’s not to say I think Neale is the Ripper. There is nothing to suggest he had any motive. He is more likely to simply be a surgeon who fell on hard times.

However it makes you think that the Ripper may be someone who has been an unknown, and was not an identified person of interest by police at the time.

Hi Craig,

If he gave them gifts, what would his purpose have been for deliberately leaving those gifts on the murder sites?

Regards, Pierre

[Tom_Wescott]

What I tried to do was focus on what we know, or think we know, about the Ripper and use this to try and narrow down the list of potential persons of interest.

We got so distracted on side discussions that we barely scratched the surface.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Craig H]

It’s probably time to wrap up this thread as it’s gone as fare as it can.

What I tried to do was focus on what we know, or think we know, about the Ripper and use this to try and narrow down the list of potential persons of interest.

Witness statements (in particular PC Smith, Lawende and Marshall) suggest Jack was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache and not working class.

It appears he lived or worked locally and knew the victims as they all lived close to each other. Many others have said he must have known the area well.

I think he must have had good social skills to be able for his victims to be comfortable with him (as seen in witness statements). I also think he gave them gifts (such as the cigarette case, bonnet and the red handkerchief)

From some of the coroners and posts from others, I think he had surgical skills. Like others, I find it hard to believe he could have made the cuts and remove organs in the dark in such short time without previous surgical experience. Also, I think his “purpose” was to remove organs and show off his skills.

I identified Benjamin Neale who met the above criteria.

That’s not to say I think Neale is the Ripper. There is nothing to suggest he had any motive. He is more likely to simply be a surgeon who fell on hard times.

However it makes you think that the Ripper may be someone who has been an unknown, and was not an identified person of interest by police at the time.

[Craig H]

It would be interesting to see if John Orford studied at the same University (ie. University College of London) at the same time as Benjamin Neal.

Orford was born in 1857 in Ipswich, Suffolk (so more typical age for medical student than Benjamin).

In 1881 Census, he was a "medical student" living at Lambeth. This was south of the river - not sure if there were Universities near Lambeth where he could have studied.

There are records of Orford working as a Medical Supervisor at Royal Free Hospital in Grays Inn Road in 1888. In 1891, he had moved to Tanshelf, Yorkshire.

Craig