Ripper Facts

[jerryd]

It's one of those pliable sources that you can manipulate to say whatever you want. However, no one has traced Eliza Flemming or Harriet Bowdry after the event...or have they?

I certainly haven't. Who are they, Debs?

Also, found this. There was another ad in 1887 with Merrick asking for "old clothing" for destitute women discharged from prison.

Guardian September 12, 1888

[Debra A]

Debs,

I just read something in the article I haven't noticed until now. Here is the part I mean.

But you will be doubtless more astonished to know that the last murder was the indirect cause of no less than four women coming to prison. Three of these were acquaintances and near neighbors of the poor murdered girl. They saw all the horrors that were disclosed in the room where the dead woman lay was entered, and what with their "upset feelings", as they said, and their being called upon in public-houses to narrate what they had seen, their subsequent presence at Millbank through drink was a result simply inevitable.

Merrick is most probably speaking about the Mary Kelly murder in this clip. He states three girls were near neighbors and acquaintances with her. He also states they saw all the horrors which were disclosed when the room was entered and it was due to this that they ended up in drink and subsequently in Millbank.

I wonder if he included these three as some of the supposed victims in his narrative, which obviously they couldn't have been unless they were "post" Mary Kelly murders.

It's one of those pliable sources that you can manipulate to say whatever you want. However, no one has traced Eliza Flemming or Harriet Bowdry after the event...or have they?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby
Thanks for the pick up on Marshall's comment - typo on my part - yes, it was in your prayers, not dreams.
The sunburnt or rosacea options .... I guess both mean the attacker had fair skin ??
What's your thoughts on Wilson as the first victim ?
Rgds
Craig

Yes I think he had fair skin and the sunburnt face man of Ada could be blotchy.
and absolutely she could be first or early victim of the ripper.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Michael,

Allegedly, Eddowes bought her new jacket at Mr. Edmett’s pawnbroker’s shop, Maidstone.

Regards,

Simon

[Michael W Richards]

Hi All,

I was intrigued by the following—

"Again, it may perhaps surprise you to learn that five out of the poor women who were the victims of the Whitechapel murderer, a couple of years ago, had been in the Millbank Prison, and that one of them was released from the place and received a gift of clothes from me within twenty-four hours of her murder.

“I’ll soon get my doss money, see what a jolly bonnet I’ve got now!”

Polly Nichols fell off the radar between 24th and 30th August, and for a long time people have been wondering where she got her new hat.

Perhaps now we have the answer.

Regards,

Simon

Just made me think.. where did Kate get her "new" jacket Simon?

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I was intrigued by the following—

"Again, it may perhaps surprise you to learn that five out of the poor women who were the victims of the Whitechapel murderer, a couple of years ago, had been in the Millbank Prison, and that one of them was released from the place and received a gift of clothes from me within twenty-four hours of her murder.

“I’ll soon get my doss money, see what a jolly bonnet I’ve got now!”

Polly Nichols fell off the radar between 24th and 30th August, and for a long time people have been wondering where she got her new hat.

Perhaps now we have the answer.

Regards,

Simon

[jerryd]

Hi Craig
Here is the original thread on Work Among the Fallen about the victims being in Millbank. This thread is a continuation of the discussion where we discovered that Millbank was in fact used as a prison for women serving shorter sentences after the time the history books say it was closed for the receiving of prisoners.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4795

Debs,

I just read something in the article I haven't noticed until now. Here is the part I mean.

But you will be doubtless more astonished to know that the last murder was the indirect cause of no less than four women coming to prison. Three of these were acquaintances and near neighbors of the poor murdered girl. They saw all the horrors that were disclosed in the room where the dead woman lay was entered, and what with their "upset feelings", as they said, and their being called upon in public-houses to narrate what they had seen, their subsequent presence at Millbank through drink was a result simply inevitable.

Merrick is most probably speaking about the Mary Kelly murder in this clip. He states three girls were near neighbors and acquaintances with her. He also states they saw all the horrors which were disclosed when the room was entered and it was due to this that they ended up in drink and subsequently in Millbank.

I wonder if he included these three as some of the supposed victims in his narrative, which obviously they couldn't have been unless they were "post" Mary Kelly murders.

[Debra A]

Hi Craig
Here is the original thread on Work Among the Fallen about the victims being in Millbank. This thread is a continuation of the discussion where we discovered that Millbank was in fact used as a prison for women serving shorter sentences after the time the history books say it was closed for the receiving of prisoners.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4795

[Craig H]

Hi Craig,

I assume you were addressing me here? Anyways, I don't know if they were in Millbank at the same time. I doubt that is the case.

Here is the news clip on Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly as friends. Whether it's true or not is the question.

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

Hi Jerry
Sorry - yes - I meant to address that to you.
Interesting to read the Millibank clips. What do you think about it ?
Rfgds
Craig

[jerryd]

Here is the thread on Millbank Prison.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=10108

[jerryd]

Hi Patrick
Some good stuff here.
I thought the 5 canonical victims were all prostitutes ?? Must be a blind spot on my side, I'll revisit this.
Are you saying they were't prostitutes, or they weren't soliciting on the night ?
Interesting about what you say on the connections between the victims . I'll try and find Debra's post on how the 5 victims knew each other.
Can you post that article you mentioned ?
All interesting
Craig

Hi Craig,

I assume you were addressing me here? Anyways, I don't know if they were in Millbank at the same time. I doubt that is the case.

Here is the news clip on Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly as friends. Whether it's true or not is the question.

Echo London Middlesex November 9, 1888

[Craig H]

Hi Abby
Thanks for the pick up on Marshall's comment - typo on my part - yes, it was in your prayers, not dreams.
The sunburnt or rosacea options .... I guess both mean the attacker had fair skin ??
What's your thoughts on Wilson as the first victim ?
Rgds
Craig

[Craig H]

Hi Patrick
Some good stuff here.
I thought the 5 canonical victims were all prostitutes ?? Must be a blind spot on my side, I'll revisit this.
Are you saying they were't prostitutes, or they weren't soliciting on the night ?
Interesting about what you say on the connections between the victims . I'll try and find Debra's post on how the 5 victims knew each other.
Can you post that article you mentioned ?
All interesting
Craig

[Abby Normal]

the time of year or place dosnt really preclude anyone from getting sunburnt-just amount of time outside and skin type.

I don't really have a problem with most of what you write Craig. The only thing is that he really said "you would say anything but your prayers". not dreams. which is an important point when trying to figure out what was going on between the ripper and stride.

I would say he might or might not have known, even casually, his victims, but I think he probably knew mary Kelly.

They all at some point, engaged in prostitution, but I don't think MK or Stride were actively prostituting the night of there murders.

contracting the disease might have been the trigger for the attacks, but the real motivation was that he liked cutting up, cutting into and taking body parts from women.

[jerryd]

Hi Craig,

Interesting thoughts. As far as the sunburnt face goes, anyone outdoors for a period of time, even in March, can get sunburnt. Especially with fair skin. People on or near the river, outdoor workers or hawkers might be some examples. I also addressed a few items you brought up below.

This thread tried to focus on Ripper “facts” (those things more likely to be true).

This includes all victims were prostitutes.

Many will argue with you on this point, Craig.

The most credible witness who saw JTR were PC William Smith, Joseph Lawende and William Marshall. The consistent description was JTR was English, 28 – 35 years old, around 5’7”, pale complexion, small moustache, wore a peak cap and was not working class (Marshall heard him say "you would say anything but your dreams" and described him as educated). The other credible witness was the man in Church Lane.

Again many will argue this point as well. I'm not 100% sure the man and woman Lawende saw were Kate and her killer. For that matter, I'm not sure any of the witnesses with 100% surety saw the killer.

The killers movements on the night of the Eddowes/ Stride killings suggest he was moving towards Whitechapel which implies he lived in Whitechapel.
FBI Profiling tools suggested he lived in an area with Flowers and Dean Street at the centre.

He was definitely moving toward Whitechapel from Mitre Square but where he headed from there nobody knows.

It would appear he knew the victims (even if only by sight) as the canonical 5 all lived close to each other. The witness descriptions suggest his victims were comfortable in his presence.

I've always believed this too. They all frequented some of the same workhouses as well. Sometimes at the same time. Debs posted on one of the forums an article that stated, IIRC, 5 of the Whitechapel victims were in Millbank prison. I have also found a news article that stated Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly were friends.

There is a strong argument supporting JTR had medical knowledge due to his ability to cut with purpose in a dark environment.

Depends on which Doctor you ask. I believe it was Monty that stated Mitre Square wasn't as dark as we think it was.

Ada Wilson was the first attack

Debs has posted some great info on Ada Wilson, as you mentioned.