Double Event Timeline

[RedBundy13]

JTR has made a real mess of his last victim, then he vanished and never killed again as JTR... why did he suddenly decide to toy with his knife starting with Eddowes. and why is MJK a careful and controlled mess... if such a thing can exist

With MJK maybe he felt more comfortable, like he didnt need to rush because there was little chance of him being interupted. He finally has a victim that he can do whatever he wants to with her. Hes in no hurry so he can litterly rip her to pieces and leave the most shocking crime scene the police had ever seen. His work/masterpiece complete, he can finally rest... for a while...

[RedBundy13]

Hello Lynn and all,

Clenched hands? In both Stride and Eddowes. Sign of strangulation I have heard. So I think yes, they were both strangled first.

C4

Hey curious,
Im not so sure I agree with the clenched fists must have been strangled first theory. If it was me being stangled my first reaction would be to drop what ever was in my hands and try to pry my attackers hands or arm off of my neck.
Just picture the situation in your head, someone strangling another. Do you see that person trying to pry the attackers hands or arm off of their neck with clenched fists? Or do you see the victim grabbing at the attackers hand/arm with open hands, trying to scratch, pull, bend fingers or pry the perpetrator off of her?
While I can agree that clenched fists can be a secondary sign of stangleation, I believe that would be only towards the end, when the victim gives up and is about to go unconsious. Only then would they stop fighting and clench their fists. IMO
To me, the latter is the most likely scenario. Am I alone on that?

[lynn cates]

strange

Hello C4. Thanks for that.

Do you have any particular views on Mylett? It is an exceeding strange case to be sure.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Hello C4. I was referring to the obvious signs of strangulation--tongue lacerated/protruding, swollen face, discolouration, etc.

If someone has another by the throat and then cuts it, I daresay the hands would clench.

Cheers.
LC

Hello LC,

May I refer you to http://www.forensicpathologyonline.c...04&Itemid=121? Ligature Strangulation. Interesting read, anyway, the whole thing.

I have taken the fact that you can see Lizīs pupils "staring" through the lids as a sign that her eyes were bulging, but have since seen the same thing (pupils seen through closed eyes) in another Swede - alive (as far as I could tell, difficult to to be sure with some Swedes) Just joking!

The is also a reference on the boards somewhere, think it is Rose Mylett, "none of the secondary signs of strangulation, such as clenched fists..."

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

motive

Hello Malcolm. If I understand you properly, his motive completely changed by the "Double Event." For surely Polly and Annie were not anti-Semitic killings?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

yes i like my theories, but i think this latest one has gone too far

i've got carried away talking about Stride too much, i get like this quite often, it's time to go now and chill out.

[Rubyretro]

just think of Hitler and it'll be similar to this.... but with JTR there is also far more

.

you know, my mind has boggled so much recently that if the wind changes then I may well remain boggled for life.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. Are you saying he wished to bring opprobrium upon the Anarchists? Sir Charles thought that as well and I have done a good deal of research along those lines and would be delighted to discuss that.

Cheers.
LC

uuum...... aaah......uuum

i think he's targeting the Jewish race only, he's used Dutfields because it has a strong Jewish reputation.... his hated is the same as all the other Antisemetic idiots that were around at that time, loads of them.

but we dont know the nature of his hatred, it's probably paranoia, jealousy and the fact that they seem so successful in life, compared to everyone else, just think of Hitler and it'll be similar to this.... but with JTR there is also far more, he looks like he's also blaming them to distract the police away from him, especially with LA DE DA, that really is rediculous.

he might also be pretending to go insane with his last two victims, to deflect attention away from him as well...... he went OTT with MJK starting with Eddowes face, yes, i think he might have done this on purpose only, to distact attention away from him and to create maximum repulsion via the media..... and finally, no better than to blame a Jew.

the more hideous he can be/ the more insane/ the more the Jew..... the less that JTR looks like Joe Average, when he finally decides to go to the police. JTR could be distancing himself from the killer that he's portraying, so that when he goes to the police in a months time, he appears nothing like him.

uum i feel a bit odd, how strange..... he's masking why he's killing, why is he doing this! he's hiding what he's doing just in case someone that he knows, suddenly realises..... why the last two only, he's masking what he's doing because someone else has become suspicious of him recently, or someone else has told him to make more of a mess from now on.

right i have to go off line to think about this latest idea..... uum not sure, or maybe back track it slightly




.

[lynn cates]

Anarchists

Hello Malcolm. Are you saying he wished to bring opprobrium upon the Anarchists? Sir Charles thought that as well and I have done a good deal of research along those lines and would be delighted to discuss that.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm. I am still unsure why you think that, given these considerations, Liz would have been killed at all?

If it is a dangerous place and unfit for mutilation, why not give it a miss and go straight to Mitre sq--or Miller's court, for that matter?

Cheers.
LC

hi Lynn

because i think that the chalk/ graffiti was originally intended for the gates of Dutfields, because the one thing that's very hard to find in pitch blackness and lieing in the street is Chalk, my guess is he had it in his pocket when he left home.

found lieing in the street, the chalk would be dirty, dark in colour and soaking wet, no i extremely doubt it.

the graffiti refers to the Jews and Dutfields is a ``revolutionary workers social club``, so this is a very strong link indeed, plus 2 murders in one night is very suspicious as well.

Dutfields is only a dangerous location if you mutilate there, but up the road is no more dangerous than anywhere else, Dutfields is only safe for a quick visit, which is just enough time to leave graffiti on the gate and before you leave, to dump a blood soaked piece of dress.

this is the same amout of time to quickly kill someone there, as the 2nd best alternative..... to failing in his attempt to get Stride to clear off, or to kill her up the road.

in fact, to kill Stride there, is far quicher than to write the graffiti, he only has to slit her and walk off, he does not have to lay her down or watch her die. he only needs to walk in, grab her scalf, lean her over, slit her, let go and walk out.

did he lay her down or did she simply collapse... not sure.

for A.Chapman or similar to live, she only had to say one thing to him, ``no, not now love, some other time``, thus he has to walk off because she is out in the open, in a very risky location and she's just said no, so there's no point carrying on talking to her... forget it, find someone else.

but with Stride this didn't work, because the place she chose to wait later on was perfect for a quick kill and it was also the place that JTR was intending to target later on as well, after killing her, or someone else...... regardless!

JTR was hell bent on Dutfields, so therefore he saw Stride again, 15 mins later or maybe even 1/2 an hour later.

both the killer and victim were targeting the same location that night and what killed Stride was to wait in the shadows

[lynn cates]

alternatives

Hello Malcolm. I am still unsure why you think that, given these considerations, Liz would have been killed at all?

If it is a dangerous place and unfit for mutilation, why not give it a miss and go straight to Mitre sq--or Miller's court, for that matter?

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

JTR would worry about someone coming out yes and someone like him, entering the yard quickly, so realising this, JTR must have killed her lightning fast.... fact!

no point him chatting her up inside the yard first, just in case someone comes out and sees him chatting to her, because with the other murders, the body was found elsewhere..... NO NO NO THIS IS HIS CHOSEN MURDER SITE!...... he must not be seen here, please remember, ``i hope this area is ok, i dont want to be seen having sex with you here``... but up the road 5 mins earlier is ok.

he is not planning to gut her, no that's not the point, JTR is never seen at the murder site..... only before and after.

dont ever ever get this wrong, JTR thus rushes her and kills her instantly.

GH if he's JTR, was never seen at the murder site when it counts... he left at 3am, distancing himself from Millers court...... JTR is not seen close enough to the murder sites and close enough to their times of death!

i want you to consider this in a simplistic back to basic way, when you query if JTR is insane or unintelligent, no he's smart.

JTR has made a real mess of his last victim, then he vanished and never killed again as JTR... why did he suddenly decide to toy with his knife starting with Eddowes. and why is MJK a careful and controlled mess... if such a thing can exist

Why compared to these victims, are the first two mutilations so tidy looking... not sure

[lynn cates]

waste products?

Hello Ruby. Thanks for that.

Your reply to #2 is something with which most Ripper researchers can identify--including me. Wasted time? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

1. Would he be apprehensive about Rombro (Kranz) working in the back office? (ie, going out suddenly)

Nope. It was pitch black and besides he hadn't done anything wrong.

2. Would he be apprehensive about the side door? (ie, someone exiting suddenly)

Nope. It was pitch black and besides he hadn't done anything wrong. Maybe he was pissing ?

3. Was he in the yard around 12.15 when Wess was in the yard?

I wasn't there, Lynn, so I wouldn't know.

[lynn cates]

club

Hello Malcolm.

"or was killed from someone INSIDE the club"

Well, I can live with that.

Cheers.
LC