Double Event Timeline

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello C4. I was referring to the obvious signs of strangulation--tongue lacerated/protruding, swollen face, discolouration, etc.

If someone has another by the throat and then cuts it, I daresay the hands would clench.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

strangling

Hello David.

"Not sure Isenchmid would have been a strangler, if a murderer. It's all about knife and thundering threats with him."

Umm? Actually, I am more keen on his strangling than his knife work. Did you not read his wife's story that he tried to strangle her and he would have succeeded had not a neighbour intervened?

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Jumped out on

Hello Malcom,

Funny you should say that - my latest JTR nightmare was of Jack jumping out of a dark doorway, walls and doors painted black, narrow street, knife flashing, nasty!

When the nightmares start and I am checking under the bed at night I find it is time to turn to Terry Pratchett for a while lol.

Best wishes,
C4

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her."

But if he saw her whilst "shooting around the corner" he still needed to get her into the yard.

Cheers.
LC

hi Lynn

no, he already knew that she was there, he shot around the corner and grabbed her, she was already in the yard, in the shadows and by the door.

my guess is that he was watching her from somewhere near the road junction, or maybe past it, further on from where Pipeman was, rather than from where Schwartz came from, this is because, before launching his attack, he has to know that this junction is clear, because you cant tell from where Schwartz was, hence Schwartz didn't see Pipeman either... at first.

JTR is hoping that Stride will clear off..... JTR could also be BS, but if so, by God he was a careless fool !

JTR might also have been planning to kill Stride up the road, if she left Dutfields like he was hoping, but this would be very hard indeed, because he has already spoken to her 15 mins earlier..... so he would have to follow her quietly and jump her from behind, because there's no point trying to chat her up again.... because it would look very strange to her that he's back again !

if i was JTR, I would forget about killing her up the road, too risky, i'd give her another 5 mins to leave Dutfields and if not, i'd rush her at high speed and grab her by the Scalf !

if BS is JTR, he too will have to rush her at high speed as well, because she already knows who this idiot is !

Stride's biggest mistake is to wait inside the yard, because she only has a split second to react if JTR shoots around the corner and grabs her, it's truly awfall, the poor woman is a sitting Duck in there.

it would be very unwise to remain there, realising how easy it is for someone to kill you in the shadows, especially if you've just had a row with a violent drunk 15 mins ago.

her safest bet is to remain outside in the street, but no, i think she waited by the door, which means that JTR can sneak right up to the gates without the poor girl even knowing that he's so close, it's quite scary if you think about it.

it's one of the best locations for a lightning fast murder, but it's the worst if you intend to wait there for more than 20 seconds.

Stride was attacked earlier on.... outside or close to outside, so she might have thought that it was safer to wait quietly by the door instead, thus hiding herself and attracting no more trouble, because from where she is now she cant easily be seen by a passer by...... true ! but not if JTR already knows that she's there, if so; she's waiting in the worst place possible.

JTR could be BS, or someone who saw the row earlier on, or due to targeting Dutfields anyway; is bound to spot her in the dark..... because only a casual person walking by wont see her

[curious4]

Hello David.

"Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'."

That is correct. And I find it significant.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn and all,

Clenched hands? In both Stride and Eddowes. Sign of strangulation I have heard. So I think yes, they were both strangled first.

Regarding cachous I have somehow always thought that she was given them earlier on in the evening, along oī the corsage and the hypothetical grapes, but I suppose she could have been given them just before the attack. Pity no-one came forward to say "I sold the cachous to the murdered woman!" Wonder if the police followed that line of inquiry?

I think that if she had them while waiting she would have had them in her hand - what better time to be chomping on cachous?

Perhaps more evidence of a sudden attack could be the blood on her hand - if not transferred by the doctor - she briefly lost consciousness, came to and put her hand to her throat to see why it was painful. She took longer to bleed to death because of the single cut.

Cheers,
C4

"Read not to contradict and refute, nor to believe and take for granted, nor to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider" Lord Bacon

[DVV]

Hi Lynn, yes, that's significant, but in terms of slight change of MO : a quicker murder, and more mutilations.

That said, you certainly can argue it wasn't Isenchmid there, however all murders are quick and silent enough, and the killer, once again, must have used his both hands before cutting the throat while they were lying to the ground.

Not sure Isenchmid would have been a strangler, if a murderer. It's all about knife and thundering threats with him.

Dvvvv

[lynn cates]

significant

Hello David.

"Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'."

That is correct. And I find it significant.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Hi RedB

The cachous being found in her hand just goes to prove she was killed in the blink of an eye fast. Obviously there wasnt a struggle, they werent arguing with one another

Agreed, this cannot be disputed.

or she wasnt trying to push off a man that was getting a little to touchy feely. No, his motive and agenda was to suprise and kill her.
This just proves for me that it was JtR who killed her. She didnt see the attack coming, it was just business as usual for her, when WHAM!! He sprang on her and killed her just like that.

Yes, but it seems there was no obvious sign of suffocation in that case, neither in Eddowes'. That doesn't mean he did not held their throats first to put them down to the ground, of course. However, it indicates a slight change of his MO : the man now was able to kill more quickly.
Less time spent to kill (Stride and Eddowes), and more time for mutilations (Eddowes).

To me this just points to the total randomness of the crime and in my mind

I'm not sure the spot was a total random choice. Too many Jews in the double-event.

[RedBundy13]

Random??

The cachous being found in her hand just goes to prove she was killed in the blink of an eye fast. Obviously there wasnt a struggle, they werent arguing with one another or she wasnt trying to push off a man that was getting a little to touchy feely. No, his motive and agenda was to suprise and kill her.
This just proves for me that it was JtR who killed her. She didnt see the attack coming, it was just business as usual for her, when WHAM!! He sprang on her and killed her just like that.
To me this just points to the total randomness of the crime and in my mind, since it was so random it matches up with the others, he was just interupted before he could finish his "work".

[lynn cates]

into the yard

Hello Malcolm.

"the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her."

But if he saw her whilst "shooting around the corner" he still needed to get her into the yard.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

quandary

Hello C4.

"Why were the cachous still in Lizīs hand when she was found?"

An excellent question and one that has bothered me for some time.

Let me know what you figure out.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Timeline

Hello Malcom,

Agree with you on some of your points but not that JTR killed Stride because she was there. He seemed to like to take risks and perhaps thought he would have time for the mutilations - would take a chance, anyway - and it hadnīt occured to him that anyone would be driving into the yard at that time of night.

Best wishes,
C4 (not to be confused with curious)

[Malcolm X]

yes, careful and controlled, thinking and taking his time.
he finishes and dumps the Apron, walks off home, time for bed.

two murders, but only one event, both are the same

[Hunter]

plus on damp rough painted brick, the letters would be all broken up, you'd have to go over them a few times, it would be quite hard work...... were the bricks painted gloss or matt black ?

The writing would have stayed in the confines of each individual brick ( appx. 2 inches tall). Distortion would have only occurred if script this small had crossed the mortar joint, which was of a more coarse texture (containing sand) than the bricks. The mortar joint could vary slightly from 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch.

The fascia, where Jon's illustration depicts the writing's location was 2 bricks in length ( appx. 16 1/2 inches).

[Malcolm X]

Hello all,

Getting back to the timeline, I have been pondering, in my quiet way. Why were the cachous still in Lizīs hand when she was found? If she was pulled into the street and thrown to the ground, wouldnīt she have dropped them? If you are pushed over I would have thought that you would automatically put out your hands to break your fall. Also the observation that the man who pushed her was walking as though drunk. Somehow I donīt picture Jack as staggering drunk while doing his "work". Did the killer first pull her into the street and throw her down and then drag her into the yard? In the other killings it appears that the victim was first lured into a quiet place and then quickly subdued.

As there is a 15 minute window, is it possible that Liz picked herself (and cachous (or cachoux) up from the ground, escaped from the drunk and was killed by someone else? Why was she waiting in the doorway in the first place? Did she have an escort who asked her to wait while he visited the facilities/fetched his shiny knife from a hiding place in Dutfields Yard, who then came up from behind and pulled/lured her in?

Of course, this means that Schwartz didnīt see the killer and that the pipeman wasnīt involved.....

Donīt think it was a domestic, the police investigated the possibility very thoroughly at the time and would, I think, have been very happy if the double event had been a single.

the Cachous were still in her hand because maybe they weren't earlier on and she got them out because she thought that her man was about to come out of the club.... but instead JTR shot around the corner and suddenly grabbed her.

it looks like she was suddenly pounced on and killed very quickly, which is just about the only way to kill her in such a dangerous place.

she said earlier on ``not tonight love, some other time maybe``, which if her, points towards her meeting someone that was special to her, or someone inside that had arranged to have sex with her, from earlier on that day..... just wait for me outside the club.

she was attacked by BS earlier on, but was still there 15 mins later, so she was definitely waiting for someone, unfortunately her still being there might be preventing JTR from killing someone else up the road and dumping the evidence, plus the graffiti on the gates of Dutfields.

i think Stride had already said no to him earlier on, so he was looking for someone else to kill, but was wasting his time bothering because she was still there..... and thus annoying him !

why did JTR kill her there, but not mutilate her, and then kill again later on and mutilate..... it looks like he killed Stride simply because she was there and shouldn't have been...... thus HE HAD TO....... HAD TO....... go in search of another victim.

why did he hunt down another victim?...... because he was unable to mutilate the first and thus leave his graffiti there, because without the victim gutted, this victim could be another killer....even with his graffiti

he needed the victim gutted and the graffiti too, together as one via the Apron piece, because this means that the killer is JTR.... but no other killers mutilate.... they do a Stride instead.... OH DEAR, yes exactly; Stride could be seen as someone else and still is today by many !

sorry not quite right, no other killer in the whole of the U.K mutilates, so JTR who has to fuel his own bloated ego, has to, he has no choice, and more importantly, has to get more repulsive too, ego, think of his ego, he's on a mission, catch me if you can!

This chalk/ graffiti was originally intented for the gates of Dutfield, but he couldn't because he was unable to lure Stride away to mutilate her, he therefore killed her as another person might do and committed the later murder as HIMSELF, to tie this back to Dutfields and the 1st murder.

Stride could not be mutilated in that yard, in fact, that area is only safe for a really quick kill, JTR knew this, but he still needed a victim there, to connect his next murder back to a Jewish location via his graffiti, he was saying ``it was me who killed at Dutfields earlier on``.

the graffiti says, ``the men in that club are those, that will not be blamed for nothing`` .

he doesn't of course say that, well he isn't going to spoon feed you is he, it's up to you to suss it out, otherwise life is too easy isn't it

bloddy hell, i've gone on a bit sorry !