Election

[Geddy2112]

Let's embrace it, and all the cultures in it. Clinging on the past like we need to stay in some un-changeable frozen state is crazy. What it means to be British is changing every day, and it has changed every day in the past. Lets just get on with living in the now and making the best future for ourselves. Nostalgia does nothing but keep you locked in a longing that will never be fulfilled.

Yes lets do that, my point exactly... however that has to come from all sides and unfortunately it does not. I'm all for everyone living together (a point that escapes you as you have the racist glasses on), sharing ideas, cultures, foods, stories etc but that has to be a two sided affair and it does not happen in the main. The vast majority of our 'brown skinned' friends do not want to mix with us 'white chaps' they want their culture and their culture only and that is the problem I'm trying to discuss but it seems impossible because you need to judge people and call them racist and xenophobic.

I've got absolutely no 'dislike' of people from other countries, I friggin married one so that shoots your theory right out the water. What I do object with is they (our 'brown skin' brethren as you call them) do not generally wish to mix in with 'us.' Again Herlock made this very same point but you are not tearing strips off him. The roads signs are just a simple example of this, there are others and that is what I'm trying to say.

So yes it would be great to be a truly multicultural country however and this is the big point... it has to come from both sides and one side seems rather intent on that not happening.

Are you still going to come back for more insulting and not understanding all the while or have you actually quit the thread this time?

[Svensson]

I have said multiple times that immigration is a discussion that needs to be had, and that I am more than happy to discuss numbers, policy, population sustainability, the actual percentages of legal and illegal immigration and the various reasons for them - student visas, skilled worker visas, humanitarian visas.

I agree and these are the dicussions that REALLY should be had but they are not being had. The only discusion is "we need to reduce immigration" and by reducing the complexity of the subject to this singular slogan makes it by definition xenophobic.

IMHO.

Cheers.

[Tab]

Astonishing. Clearly no point trying to change your mind. "The roads signs are just a simple example of this" - I can't, I just can't.

The vast majority of our 'brown skinned' friends do not want to mix with us 'white chaps' they want their culture and their culture only and that is the problem I'm trying to discuss but it seems impossible because you need to judge people and call them racist and xenophobic.

Another sweeping, repugnant, patently false, unjustifiable statement. The vast majority huh?

Have the day you deserve
Tab

[Tab]

I agree and these are the dicussions that REALLY should be had but they are not being had. The only discusion is "we need to reduce immigration" and by reducing the complexity of the subject to this singular slogan makes it by definition xenophobic.

IMHO.

Cheers.

Thanks Svensson. It's almost like immigration is a complex matter, who knew

All the best,
Tab

[Geddy2112]

Another sweeping, repugnant, patently false, unjustifiable statement. The vast majority huh?

Read Herlock's post. Of course it's a sweeping statement but that does not make it untrue or false either. An observation that I was the only white person on a street in London is just that, an observation. It's not racist, it was true and it's not xenophobic either. Would you have called me xenophobic or racist if I was sitting in the home end of an American Football game in Kansas and said '**** I'm the only British bloke in the crowd.' No you would not... and that is the huge problem here. You assume it's racist or xenophobic because 'brown skin' is mentioned and you mentioned that first NOT me.

Have the day you deserve

Another attack. Lovely.

I think I'll leave it as that. I'm not xenophobic, I'm not racist in any way shape or form and like I said I resent you telling me I am. However you have yourself a good day because unlike yourself I do not actually wish ill of anybody and I do not band about false hurtful accusations.

[The Rookie Detective]

Fascinating debate.


I would remark that being "British" isn't about being "white;" it's about learning to accept and deal with the fact that we are mostly descended from an 'Empire" that was focused primarily on ruling the world at all costs.

Like a bunch of Storm Troopers who become faced with a moral dilemma, when they come to realise they have been fighting for the "baddies" all along.

The British Empire were tyrannical and oppressive, and today we live in a world that is still feeling the ripples from the disgraceful behavioural choices made by those who did so in the name of the empire.

Generally speaking, the terms "nation" and "country" are merely human constructs that were created many moons ago as a way to label, categorise, segragate and ultimately...to control the masses of those within its own borders. Over many generations each "nation" or "country" became indoctrinated with the belief that anyone outside thier respectively geographical and ethnic boundaries, were merely "foreigners."

This is despite us ALL being human, regardless of what nationality we are.

And therein lies the rub...



Like a legendary man once said...


"Imagine there's no countries..."


World War 1 is a prime example of what happens when misplaced loyalty to a "nation" is pushed to the extreme.

Close to 11 million military personnel (not including the additional 13 million or so civilians) lost their lives over what was essentially a domestic argument between 3 cousins.

Unlike the 2nd World War when a sociopathic racist lunatic had to be stopped at all costs, with WW1, there was never any great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race

And yet sometimes it feels as though we are living so far in the past that we fail to accept that things change; or should change.

The immigration issue will never be solved because the system in place is inherently wrong in the first place.

We have a moral obligation to help those who most in need and require help, and yet some get fixated on the idea of "keeping those foreigners out"

But just like the USA; Britain is a nation founded and made up of foreigners.

Its important not to lose sight of that when people are risking their lives and dying in their attempts to cross the channel.



RD

[Herlock Sholmes]

Fascinating debate.


I would remark that being "British" isn't about being "white;" it's about learning to accept and deal with the fact that we are mostly descended from an 'Empire" that was focused primarily on ruling the world at all costs.

Like a bunch of Storm Troopers who become faced with a moral dilemma, when they come to realise they have been fighting for the "baddies" all along.

The British Empire were tyrannical and oppressive, and today we live in a world that is still feeling the ripples from the disgraceful behavioural choices made by those who did so in the name of the empire.

Generally speaking, the terms "nation" and "country" are merely human constructs that were created many moons ago as a way to label, categorise, segragate and ultimately...to control the masses of those within its own borders. Over many generations each "nation" or "country" became indoctrinated with the belief that anyone outside thier respectively geographical and ethnic boundaries, were merely "foreigners."

This is despite us ALL being human, regardless of what nationality we are.

And therein lies the rub...



Like a legendary man once said...


"Imagine there's no countries..."


World War 1 is a prime example of what happens when misplaced loyalty to a "nation" is pushed to the extreme.

Close to 11 million military personnel (not including the additional 13 million or so civilians) lost their lives over what was essentially a domestic argument between 3 cousins.

Unlike the 2nd World War when a sociopathic racist lunatic had to be stopped at all costs, with WW1, there was never any great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race

And yet sometimes it feels as though we are living so far in the past that we fail to accept that things change; or should change.

The immigration issue will never be solved because the system in place is inherently wrong in the first place.

We have a moral obligation to help those who most in need and require help, and yet some get fixated on the idea of "keeping those foreigners out"

But just like the USA; Britain is a nation founded and made up of foreigners.

Its important not to lose sight of that when people are risking their lives and dying in their attempts to cross the channel.



RD

Good points RD but I disagree on some of it. Why do we have a moral obligation to look after people who just feel that our country is a better financial option than their own? I think that our first obligation is to our own population. We have people living on the streets; we have old people choosing between food or heat; we have people working who still have to go to food banks to survive; we have an NHS that’s on its knees; we have housing shortages. Shipping in droves of people from other countries cannot be a remotely good idea (even if a few of them might be nurses). We are far too soft in my opinion. We are a country that sends money to India…a country that has a space programme!! Why isn’t a single politician saying “I tell you what chaps, why don’t you hold back on building rockets for an while and make some effort to stop your people starving? Or to allow people in more remote areas access to medical help?” But no, we send cash.

You’re right to mention that ‘great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race.’ One person far more than any other was instrumental in ensuring that this didn’t happen. He did it in the face of many who wished to appease. Now, in some quarters that man is treated disgracefully. This is one of my reasons for pessimism RD. This culture of self-loathing. This ‘oh aren’t we such terrible people’ attitude. Statue smashing, book banning, free speech infringements, books edited. It genuinely saddens me RD to see the direction that the country appears to be taking. (Look at the horrific way that JK Rowling is being treated. An inspirational feminist who does more for charity on her own than some cities do and in some quarters you’d think that she was a child murderer. Just for giving an opinion and standing up for women’s rights!)

We should all acknowledge and accept the bad things that our own countries have done (and still do in some cases). We don’t need to demonise people for having very human failings. And we definitely should not feel guilty about expressing pride in a nations achievements. It sometimes feels like we are encouraged to respect, study and celebrate the history of other countries and cultures (rightly) but it’s somehow shameful to do the same for our own.

It’s just my own opinion but I really see no improvement on the horizon.

[Svensson]

I just wish those Doggers would f**k back off to Doggerland.

[The Rookie Detective]

Good points RD but I disagree on some of it. Why do we have a moral obligation to look after people who just feel that our country is a better financial option than their own? I think that our first obligation is to our own population. We have people living on the streets; we have old people choosing between food or heat; we have people working who still have to go to food banks to survive; we have an NHS that’s on its knees; we have housing shortages. Shipping in droves of people from other countries cannot be a remotely good idea (even if a few of them might be nurses). We are far too soft in my opinion. We are a country that sends money to India…a country that has a space programme!! Why isn’t a single politician saying “I tell you what chaps, why don’t you hold back on building rockets for an while and make some effort to stop your people starving? Or to allow people in more remote areas access to medical help?” But no, we send cash.

You’re right to mention that ‘great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race.’ One person far more than any other was instrumental in ensuring that this didn’t happen. He did it in the face of many who wished to appease. Now, in some quarters that man is treated disgracefully. This is one of my reasons for pessimism RD. This culture of self-loathing. This ‘oh aren’t we such terrible people’ attitude. Statue smashing, book banning, free speech infringements, books edited. It genuinely saddens me RD to see the direction that the country appears to be taking. (Look at the horrific way that JK Rowling is being treated. An inspirational feminist who does more for charity on her own than some cities do and in some quarters you’d think that she was a child murderer. Just for giving an opinion and standing up for women’s rights!)

We should all acknowledge and accept the bad things that our own countries have done (and still do in some cases). We don’t need to demonise people for having very human failings. And we definitely should not feel guilty about expressing pride in a nations achievements. It sometimes feels like we are encouraged to respect, study and celebrate the history of other countries and cultures (rightly) but it’s somehow shameful to do the same for our own.

It’s just my own opinion but I really see no improvement on the horizon.

Excellent post as always Herlock and I see where you're coming from. I agree with what you're saying and have a similar mindset and outlook towards how the country is going.
For me, the main issue relates to hypocrisy.

Regardless of what country someone comes from or where they're going; ultimately, they're still human beings.
It is impossible to definitively differentiate between who genuinely needs help and who is just seeking an easier ride, but unless the system is inherently objective and fair, then as human beings, who are we to judge?

The system in place that is supposedly meant to help genuine refugees is flawed and rotten at it's core.

The policy should be that no assistance will be given to aid the physical movement of any vessel moving across the channel, until the point whereby children, women and men are about to drown.
Otherwise we allow people to die, just because they're not "British" and are "foriengers" etc etc...
Whether they are "illegal" or are seeking an easier life, until the day we have a fair means by which to turn away some and allow access to those who genuinely need it, then we can't just let people die for the sake of being British. In that context, it's absurd.

Like the absurdity of believing that thousands upon thousands of men chose to sacrifice themselves going "over the top" in the trenches; for the sake of their country...
...they didn't do it for their king and country, they did it because they didnt have a choice but to obey, and were mainly young nieve men who thought it would be just one big jolly and didnt realise what they had got themselves into. They had no choice but to obey orders and die needlessly for the sake of a huge domestic between 3 cousins that should have been resolved politically without a drop of blood spilled.

So when it comes to elections and electing those who we think will make a difference, the reality is that it really doesn't matter who's in power because nothing really changes.

I agree with you about JK Rowling and that certain modern woke populist leftist movements have caused more damage for women's rights than good.
The same goes for gay rights; a close personal friend of mine has come to feel saddened that he has experienced forms of prejudice from areas of the community he least expected. He now feels as though some factions of the BLGTQIA+ community are deamening his being a gay man. He feels that the leftist Trans movement in particular has caused more damage to gay people than
a right wing homophobe ever could, including highjacking the flag that was designed to represent the gay community.
As a white heterosexual male I have no particular view either way except that I feel saddened when a friend of mine now feels he is being persecuted for being gay by those he thought would understand and support him.

I think that people forget that politics isn't a spectrum that runs in a line from "left to right" but rather, its a circle.


In other words, if you travel too far left, you'll end up on the right...and vice versa.

Thats why in a political sense I am very much what you'd consider a "centralist'
It does meant that I often sit on the fence, but it also means that I am balanced, fair and moderate in most things.

At some point in the distant future, the "last" humans will look back at this point in history and be baffled as to how moronic, selfish and hypocritical we were, and how we chose to segregate ourselves into "nations" at the expense of being human and supporting each other as a species.

The world is doomed for sure.

The human species is simply the planet earth's own destructive "virus' and will one day be eradicated so that the planet can live on

But even Storm Troopers can do good if they choose to not be sheep.


RD

[caz]

And for the sake of this discussion, the reason I am so defensive on this is is that I am actually attacking the suggestion that by reducing the number of immigrants, we would reduce the number or severity of the problems in this country. Potholes don't fix themselves. Thames Water is not going to say "hey, all the immigrants are gone, we can now stop pumping raw sewage into the severn". You know this is not going to happen.

Absolutely right, Svensson.

If immigration could no longer be blamed for everything that's broken, who would they come for next, to take the attention off the fat cats who continue to thrive on the damage?

What's truly scary is how easy they still seem to find it to hide their own dirty hands while making people angry at the wrong people over the wrong issues.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

“They are concerned about immigration because they are being told by politicians that they should be concerned about immigration.”

I assume that you aren’t suggesting that people are incapable of forming an opinion that’s not simply one that that’s been fed them by other people? People are forming opinions and expressing concerns over what they see and experience every day where they live and work. They can’t avoid seeing and experiencing it. They have been expressing their concerns for years and have been completely ignored by all parties and they continue to be ignored.

For me it’s not just an issue of finance and I’d never suggest that immigration is the root cause of all issues but I find it difficult to believe for example that we wouldn’t feel at least some benefit from the absence of the 475,000 Romanian that have come here since 2011 to follow careers in begging and the formation of shoplifting gangs. Current estimates say that there are between 800,000 and 1,200,000 illegal immigrants in the UK. Then we have those that have come here legally in the last 2 or 3 years. Now if they weren’t here…..housing freed up, benefits not paid, NHS places not used up.

But as I said, it’s too late now as no one has the will to do anything. We surrendered the country years ago and if you express regret for the loss of your own country and its identity and history you get yells of ‘racist.’ How have we come to this tragic, warped state of affairs?

Hi Herlock,

I have to say that here in Sid Valley, we are surrounded by people who form their opinions and express their concerns about immigrants purely based on the newspapers they devour, and it's got bugger all to do with what they see and experience every day where they live or work - a tiny world where nearly all the faces are white, most are old and wrinkly, and where many have never travelled beyond their native Devon. Yet the same horrors are shared, that there are brown faces as far as the bespectacled eye can see and none of them will be speaking English if their expensive hearing aids can pick up the conversation. These "invaders" are inevitably sponging off the rest of us so they will never have to do a stroke of work. Either that, or they are taking the jobs of those not already getting their State Pension.

Goodness knows what the natives of Sid Valley would have thought of Croydon, where I lived for many years and brought up my daughter. At a very early age she would describe the adults and children around her as either pink or brown, rather than white or black, and she felt equally at home with everyone. She has never had a problem with her identity, or with the country's long history of welcoming in people from all over the world, whether we needed something from them, or they needed something from us, or a bit of both.

What has changed, apart from the aggressive marketing of grievances that are often less real than imagined?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

No place for what? Outrageous, give over. Snowflakes melting in the June heatwave. If I went to Poland, as suggested there is no way I'd expect people to talk to me in English, there is no way I'd expect the road signs to be Polish and English, there is no way I'd start to set up communities and not 'mix' with the Polish, there is no way I'd try and change Polish culture or inject my own. It's called respect and that is something that is sadly missing. And no I do not have one racist bone in my body but I do fear England's identity is being lost but obviously you are someone who gets offended by the least bit thing like 'words' and spouts the racist card when you actually probably do not know what it means. (You also need to look up the word 'all' because sometimes it does not mean what you think it does.)

I have a Polish wife and she come here to find work leaving a communist regime. First thing she did was learn the language. She had a job before she arrived. Not once has she demanded anyone to speak to her in Polish and that includes when her sister visits. Not once has she segregated with other Polish folk in the community and set up her own little clan. Not once has she wrote to the council and demanded that bus stations and road signs be changed to have Polish on them as well. Not once. She is an example of respect and how multiculturalism can work unfortunately other nationalities do not feel the same. So if you please do not tell me what I can and can't post.

The facts are multiculturalism is not working and the levels of immigration ARE putting huge strains on our NHS and welfare services and I'm saddened that our identity is being stripped away. But of course that is because I'm racist, what a load of bloody cobblers...



There are approx 1500 Mosques in England and 3228 Catholic Churches, there are 3 Mosques in Poland. The data seems not seem to back up your claim of Catholics/Christians living in Muslim countries, in fact is is less than 1%. So again who is at blame for multiculturalism not working?

Without immigration, I rather suspect 'our' NHS would not now exist to have 'huge strains' put on it, and we'd all be paying privately for our health care.

Be careful what you wish for, Geddy.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The English culture that was born out of the Norman conquest of 1066 and the remnants of the much older Anglo-Saxon culture that went before it.

Which is why so much of our language comes from French.

[caz]

I don't know did you read on social media if any dares to try and discuss immigration (or vote for Brexit) etc then you must label them a racist?

'Must' is a strong word, Geddy. What's the punishment for suggesting that while not all Brexit voters were racist, no racists would have voted Remain?

Do you know of any racists who voted Remain?

Brexit voters were willing to give up their own freedom of movement in return for immigrants losing theirs. And how well did that go? All we have heard since is that immigration has gone through the flipping roof!

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Good points RD but I disagree on some of it. Why do we have a moral obligation to look after people who just feel that our country is a better financial option than their own? I think that our first obligation is to our own population. We have people living on the streets; we have old people choosing between food or heat; we have people working who still have to go to food banks to survive; we have an NHS that’s on its knees; we have housing shortages. Shipping in droves of people from other countries cannot be a remotely good idea (even if a few of them might be nurses). We are far too soft in my opinion. We are a country that sends money to India…a country that has a space programme!! Why isn’t a single politician saying “I tell you what chaps, why don’t you hold back on building rockets for an while and make some effort to stop your people starving? Or to allow people in more remote areas access to medical help?” But no, we send cash.

You’re right to mention that ‘great oppressor who planned to take over the world and obliterate another race.’ One person far more than any other was instrumental in ensuring that this didn’t happen. He did it in the face of many who wished to appease. Now, in some quarters that man is treated disgracefully. This is one of my reasons for pessimism RD. This culture of self-loathing. This ‘oh aren’t we such terrible people’ attitude. Statue smashing, book banning, free speech infringements, books edited. It genuinely saddens me RD to see the direction that the country appears to be taking. (Look at the horrific way that JK Rowling is being treated. An inspirational feminist who does more for charity on her own than some cities do and in some quarters you’d think that she was a child murderer. Just for giving an opinion and standing up for women’s rights!)

We should all acknowledge and accept the bad things that our own countries have done (and still do in some cases). We don’t need to demonise people for having very human failings. And we definitely should not feel guilty about expressing pride in a nations achievements. It sometimes feels like we are encouraged to respect, study and celebrate the history of other countries and cultures (rightly) but it’s somehow shameful to do the same for our own.

It’s just my own opinion but I really see no improvement on the horizon.

We also shouldn't demonise people for seeing our country's past mistakes for what they were and thinking we should learn from them and try to be better in the future.