EU Vote

[caz]

'Selfish old gits'?

I'm 42; my Mam is 75.

My Mam voted Leave. She voted Leave because: 'exports and imports', 'the economy', a few bankers in 'the city'; is simply not her concern and why would it be? She couldn't give a shite about any of these things; she doesn't know anything about them nor cares or wants to know. But she is a Labour voting conservative with a small c. She loves the countryside, nature, that sort of thing.

She's very charitable and certainly not racist. But she sees England's green land being eroded and primarily voted out of a concern for the countryside. The 'global economy' includes movement of labour and she instinctively bristles when she hears such a term. I don't agree with her on this issue. While also a nature lover, I believe that the migration of labour is a fact of life that has been going on for centuries.

I voted Leave because it's a ******* scam. These people take money from ordinary people and pay themselves a small fortune and hand the rest out to 'the arts' and the like - buying people's support. It is completely anti-democratic and rides rough-shod over our sovereignty. Moreover, I don't like their values.

My Sister voted Remain. Her primary reason is that she's a midwife and felt the NHS would be better served by the EU.

So, we all had our reasons; we all had a certain amount of self-interest.

But, ultimately, these people are mental. Absolutely round the bend. No one knows how they got into a position of power, nor what they're being paid to do except draw up **** loads of regulations. And, it's all deliberate. It is a geopolitical case of: "bullshit baffles brains". They don't want you to know how it works because that way they can maintain the gravy train.

I would argue the opposite in terms of who is selfish.

Calm down, FM, calm down. You won.

Did I say that everyone who voted to leave was a selfish old git? No, I don't think I did. As many on the leave side as the remain side no doubt thought long and hard about what might be better for the country as a whole and the generation who will be living with the consequences. As many on each side no doubt voted for what they wanted - or didn't want - for themselves. And as many on each side no doubt voted from gut instinct, without a coherent thought in their head.

If you concede there are some selfish old gits around (and I've seen a few in news bulletins), who voted either way for what they thought was best for them, and bugger everyone else, then that is what I have a problem with. My response to Phil was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, as his own post was. I didn't think anyone would take my references to the slave trade and small boys being sent up chimneys at face value. And I'm quite sure the cap wouldn't fit anyone here, so no need to wear it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Well we will have to agree to disagree, Caz.

[caz]

Hi Caz

What an odd response. I am not defending myself any more than I am attacking you. But I am defending people who voted, apparently, the 'wrong' way. Yes you can have free speech - I'm all for it - but to see the kind of people who daily parade their tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and egalitarianism using language like this frankly makes me want to puke.

As for people knowing that they're right, well that's the trouble with democracy - very few people do (except for Guardian readers). Maybe we'd better cancel general elections and let Charlotte Church decide.

An equally odd - and irrelevant - response, Robert, if I may say so. Why take offence when it is suggested that racist xenophobic bigots were more likely to have voted out than in? The Daily Mail headlines certainly 'paraded' that much daily and unashamedly in the hope of recruiting as many of them as possible to the 'leave' cause. But I sincerely trust such people are in a tiny minority, and do not make up anything like the 50 plus percent who voted to leave. We all know they exist and we all know which way they were likely to vote. In the same way, only a tiny minority of remain voters will have been 'daily parading' the tolerance (how I hate that word), diversity, inclusiveness and egalitarianism that so sickens you.

Love,

Caz
X

[Elamarna]

'Selfish old gits'?


I voted Leave because it's a ******* scam. These people take money from ordinary people and pay themselves a small fortune and hand the rest out to 'the arts' and the like - buying people's support. It is completely anti-democratic and rides rough-shod over our sovereignty. Moreover, I don't like their values.

I am so sorry to say this but the above displays a lack of knowledge that is astounding.

How do they take money from "ordinary people" more than anyone else?

By the way who are "ordinary people"?

Despite the fact that the comment about giving it to "the arts" is wrong, that comment says so much more about your attitude than anything else.

And I am sorry this nonsense, and it is nonsense, about not being anti-democratic is so wrong.
There are elections to Europe(the parliament) that is served by the bureaucrats who are employed by the EU.
The same as the British parliament and its civil servants.

So far the only, and I mean only, result to affect ordinary people is the continuing fall in the pound, so fuel is and will go up, energy prices will follow, and the price of goods too.

Now of course overtime it will adjust, but who pays while it does?

The "ordinary people" that's who!

While there certainly are faults with the EU, people on the whole did not argue on those issues, but on emotive issues, which it now appears having won, they have no idea how to address.

So after being born here and having voted in every election since 1979, when I was first allowed to, I find that half of my country are small minded and insular.
However that was the outcome of the vote, so I have 2 choices, live with it or leave, as it appears to argue against it and fight is deemed to be an affront to democracy, which it is not!

Therefore to all those who voted leave, I will be leaving these shores before the end of the year, having no wish to remain in such a country.

And Shall not be going to Europe, but somewhere tropical.

And of course will still be here on the forums

Steve

[Svensson]

Actually, I only got as far as that lady saying that "the EU was devised to ensure that the great mass of people could not control government". (which was after about 2 minutes)

How long until they mentioned FEMA-camps..?

[Geddy2112]

If you happen to have 70 mins spare I suggest you watch 'BREXIT The Movie' (Google is your friend) it's how can I say it... very enlightening.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi Phil,

Of course, that would still not be nearly enough to placate all the selfish old gits (sorry, selfless lovely people) who voted out so the next generation could experience the "good old days" of slave trading and sending small boys up chimneys.

There we are, some more light hearted fun for everyone.

Love,

Caz
X

'Selfish old gits'?

I'm 42; my Mam is 75.

My Mam voted Leave. She voted Leave because: 'exports and imports', 'the economy', a few bankers in 'the city'; is simply not her concern and why would it be? She couldn't give a shite about any of these things; she doesn't know anything about them nor cares or wants to know. But she is a Labour voting conservative with a small c. She loves the countryside, nature, that sort of thing.

She's very charitable and certainly not racist. But she sees England's green land being eroded and primarily voted out of a concern for the countryside. The 'global economy' includes movement of labour and she instinctively bristles when she hears such a term. I don't agree with her on this issue. While also a nature lover, I believe that the migration of labour is a fact of life that has been going on for centuries.

I voted Leave because it's a ******* scam. These people take money from ordinary people and pay themselves a small fortune and hand the rest out to 'the arts' and the like - buying people's support. It is completely anti-democratic and rides rough-shod over our sovereignty. Moreover, I don't like their values.

My Sister voted Remain. Her primary reason is that she's a midwife and felt the NHS would be better served by the EU.

So, we all had our reasons; we all had a certain amount of self-interest.

But, ultimately, these people are mental. Absolutely round the bend. No one knows how they got into a position of power, nor what they're being paid to do except draw up **** loads of regulations. And, it's all deliberate. It is a geopolitical case of: "bullshit baffles brains". They don't want you to know how it works because that way they can maintain the gravy train.

I would argue the opposite in terms of who is selfish.

[Robert]

Hi Caz

What an odd response. I am not defending myself any more than I am attacking you. But I am defending people who voted, apparently, the 'wrong' way. Yes you can have free speech - I'm all for it - but to see the kind of people who daily parade their tolerance, diversity, inclusiveness and egalitarianism using language like this frankly makes me want to puke.

As for people knowing that they're right, well that's the trouble with democracy - very few people do (except for Guardian readers). Maybe we'd better cancel general elections and let Charlotte Church decide.

[caz]

Of course, it isn't far from banning to suggest that old people should be entitled to vote, but that if they vote the 'wrong' way then they have swallowed lies, they don't understand the issues, they're not even intelligent or educated enough to understand the issues, they're racist xenophobic selfish bigots.

It's very far from 'banning', Robert, as are the insulting opinions thrown in the opposite direction. Free speech and all that. If you are one of those who voted to leave (and won, because there were no spooks trying to fix it after all), and you know you didn't swallow any lies; you did understand the issues and are intelligent and educated enough to do so; and you know you are not a racist xenophobic selfish bigot, then you need not fret on behalf of anyone who does fall into one or more of those categories, and you certainly needn't empathise or stick up for them. If none of the accusations apply to you, you have nothing to defend yourself against.

Your mother-in-law made a judgement on behalf of her grandchildren, which she has every right to do. I'm going to let you into a secret here, Caz : some of the Leavers did the same thing, and came to a different conclusion.

Oh yes, and I'm not saying she was right (who really knows yet?), but she did know beforehand what her grandson's wishes were, and voted accordingly, so it wasn't a judgement as such, made from assumption or prejudice. She said that either result was going to affect him far more than it could possibly affect her, and she also respects what she believes are his more qualified opinions on the matter, as he has just earned himself a first class degree in sociology.

Love,

Caz
X

[Svensson]

I think 90% of the population would expect the result to be respected. We would never get 100% of all to agree on that anyways.

[Robert]

Hi Caz

I am indeed pleased at the result. My only concern is that the result be respected.

Would I have screamed 'foul' if the result had gone the other way? I think my main reaction would have been to note that the British nation had ceased to exist.

[Robert]

Has anyone suggested that, Robert?

Not here Caz, no, but I have seen examples on political sites.

Of course, it isn't far from banning to suggest that old people should be entitled to vote, but that if they vote the 'wrong' way then they have swallowed lies, they don't understand the issues, they're not even intelligent or educated enough to understand the issues, they're racist xenophobic selfish bigots.

Now, what do we do? Do we allow one side to define what counts as an argument and what is a lie, to decide who is an expert and who isn't, and to rule on which motives are pure and which impure? Or do we have a vote and go with the majority? I'm a democrat.

Your mother-in-law made a judgement on behalf of her grandchildren, which she has every right to do. I'm going to let you into a secret here, Caz : some of the Leavers did the same thing, and came to a different conclusion.

[caz]

Interesting about this huge petition demanding a re-run. Why wasn't the petition launched before the referendum? After all, its signers knew the terms of the referendum. So why did they not protest before the voting?
Could it be that they smugly assumed they'd win?

Anyway, they've made it clear that if they don't get their own way, they'll scweam and scweam and scweam.

I hardly ever sign petitions, and of course won't be signing this one, but if the linked item is correct then I was wrong to say that the petition was ad hoc. According to this, it's an old petition placed by someone some time ago, which aroused little interest, but has now been used by disgruntled remainers. There are also suggestions that people from abroad have been signing it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/683...ail-the-Brexit

Not just by 'someone', Robert, but by one in the Brexit camp, according to a similar article in the Daily Mail, which I happened to read over the ma-in-law's shoulder – cough cough.

Being in the Mail I'd have been sceptical if it wasn't going against the grain by admitting that this petition was in fact prepared before the vote, in fear and anticipation of a 'remain' win, in which event the Brexit camp was all set to cry "fix" and demand another go. So if the vote had gone the other way it seems pretty clear that the 'leavers' would have scweamed and scweamed just as loudly, only with a conspiracy theory thrown in for good measure.

I don't think it does us any good to slag off one side for the same kind of dirty tricks the other side has been using. We've just got to live with this now and try to make the best of it. At least you've got what you voted for and presumably what you feel is best for our nation, so you should be pleased that we will all soon be reaping the benefits of your decision.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

I find the notion that anyone over 60 shouldn't be allowed to vote because they won't be affected by the result, a very strange one.

Has anyone suggested that, Robert?

My mother-in-law, 83, did her bit and voted. I was proud that she bothered, and would always defend her right (and duty?) to do so, whichever way she went. As it happens she is a Daily Mail reader who generally agrees with its politics (shudder), but on this occasion she was totally disgusted by all the 'colourful' headlines, trotted out day after day, about foreigners flooding in and taking our jobs (while simultaneously claiming unemployment benefit, naturally ) and raping our women if we didn't vote to leave the EU, while accusing the remain campaign of doing all the scaremongering. The result was that it so completely hacked her off that she voted to remain - "for the sake of my grandson's future", she said.

Love,

Caz
X

[Robert]

Hi Caz

Yes, why not? If, for instance, the Scots were to vote for independence - or their own eccentric idea of independence - which they'd be perfectly entitled to do, but the Shetlands decided to go it alone, then it would not be for me, sitting down here in Essex, to send them a note telling them that I'd looked at the figures and decided that they won't be able to make it on their own, so bad luck. Nor would it be for me to tell them that they are just being selfish - perhaps the word should be 'unmutual.'

I would draw the line at cities slap bang in the middle of a country's land mass declaring UDI. Sam Marino seems to function as a country within a country, but in general I wouldn't recommend it.