Bible John (General Discussion)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Was Castlemilk John a Slater? I don’t recall reading that Cobalt (that doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been said though)

I tend to favour that he was in a car for the Docker murder but I could be wrong and I certainly wouldn’t be confident enough to bet money on it. It just seems strange that he would have gone to the trouble of stripping her, gathering her clothes and then dumping them in the river 400 or so yards away. Pat wouldn’t have stripped of her own free will under those circumstances.

A strange point is that I saw something online of a former Detective (I think it was Johnstone but I can’t find the clip) asking for people to come forward (this was a modern day clip) He mentions Castlemilk John as Bible John’s ‘mate.’ I couldn’t (and still can’t) see how anyone involved in the case can come to the conclusion that the two John’s knew each other because I’ve never seen it even hinted at anywhere

[cobalt]

The comments about White Cart Water have sparked a few thoughts on my part.

First if all, I do not think a killer with a car nearby would walk almost a quarter of a mile to dump a handbag. He could have flung it over a wall or shoved it in the boot of his car. Given that the two later victims were not driven by private car to their place of death I think it is fair to assume that Patricia Docker was no different. As for her clothes, they might well have been dumped in the river and floated beyond reach before the search team arrived. Remember the recent case in England where a woman's body lay undiscovered in a local river for weeks despite intensive high tech searching under media spotlight.

Was the Patricia Docker murder the reason for Glasgow CID thinking there might be a BJ lead somewhere south of the River Clyde? Patricia's body was found a couple of miles from Castlemilk, the very place that one of the Puttock sisters' dancing companions said he came from. Castlemilk was a new build post-war housing scheme to the south of Glasgow with a population of around 30,000 and....just one pub! So, not hard to see why any man from that area might fancy a night out on the town. Did Beattie and co. think that Jeannie Langford had mixed up the Castlemilk information, or maybe even that BJ was friends with an associate who lived in Castlemilk?

It might explain police interest in the late night ferry from the Broomielaw where they suspected BJ might have crossed the river to go south after leaving the late night bus. BJ was also reasonably close to the same ferry if he'd murdered Jemima MacDonald in Bridgeton.

Given Jeannie's recollection, it does not seem that the two Johns knew each other. CJ had remarked to Jeannie that BJ was getting on his nerves a bit. But Castlemilk John's failure to help the police, even anonymously, speaks little to his character. There must have been some 'lad chat' when the women went to powder their noses or the men went for a pee. He could have added valuable information but stayed silent, and is most likely now dead. But, if what he said was the truth, then there could not have been so many slaters by profession aged between 25-35 in the Castlemilk area, possibly called John. How much effort did the police make to track him down?

[barnflatwyngarde]

Sorry guys, I should have said this in my earlier posts.

The River Cart as talked about in the murders, is known as the Cart locally, although the full name of the river is the White Cart Water.

The River Cart is a tributary of the River Clyde and is miles away from the scene of the murder.

The photograph of the police divers searching the water is clearly the White Cart Water, the bridge is easily identified as being the same bridge in many photos of the White Cart Water.

[Ms Diddles]

Hi Ms D, if you venture forth this weekend, it is a 350 yard walk from 27 Carmichael Place to 105 Carmichael Place which is the shortest route to White Cart Water.

Not very far at all , if that is where the killer dumped some of Helen's possessions.

Oh! That's a little underwhelming in terms of an on topic stroll.

Maybe I'll have a look at it and then just have a general wander along the river.

Or there's always pizza in Oro!!

[barnflatwyngarde]

I think this could be important. It probably has been said before. If it has apologies.

I believe Pat Dockers handbag was found in the River Dart. Looking at Google maps this appears miles from the murder scene at Carmichael Place. Doesn't look like its easily reached by public transport. Strong suggestion the murderer had a car which I know many including Herlock have suggested could have been possible.

NW

Hi NW, I have just posted this info to Ms D (Apologies, I hadn't seen your post)

It is a 350 yard walk from 27 Carmichael Place to 105 Carmichael Place which is the shortest route to White Cart Water.

Not very far at all , if that is where the killer dumped some of Helen's possessions.

I attach a map which hopefully helps.


https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/27...oASAFQAw%3D%3D

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hmmmmmm! I can feel a stroll or a drive around the southside coming on this weekend!

Hi Ms D, if you venture forth this weekend, it is a 350 yard walk from 27 Carmichael Place to 105 Carmichael Place which is the shortest route to White Cart Water.

Not very far at all , if that is where the killer dumped some of Helen's possessions.

[Ms Diddles]

I think this could be important. It probably has been said before. If it has apologies.

I believe Pat Dockers handbag was found in the River Dart. Looking at Google maps this appears miles from the murder scene at Carmichael Place. Doesn't look like its easily reached by public transport. Strong suggestion the murderer had a car which I know many including Herlock have suggested could have been possible.

NW

Hmmmmmm! I can feel a stroll or a drive around the southside coming on this weekend!

[New Waterloo]

Correction River Cart. Sorry

NW

[Ms Diddles]

Hello Ms Diddles. Been thinking about your question could all 3 victims been killed by different people. Well yes they could have been. But my personal opinion is that there are two many similarities/connections linking the murders together.

The fact that all of the victims were at Barrowlands firmly establishes a link between them all.

I am trying to imagine a scenario where these murders have taken place and the victims had not been to Barrowlands. Would the police have linked the murders in that case.

I have to say yes. Although there are some differences between how the victims were killed (one left naked etc) there remain many similarities.

I think so too NW!

Glasgow was a violent city, but mainly in terms of gang related violence, drunken brawls and domestic assaults, but I doubt there were many murders of this nature.

It's interesting that when I listened to the podcast again I got the distinct impression that Audrey Gillan was quite sold on this idea that there were different perpetrators and BJ was a myth.

I thought she handled the victims relatives with great sensitivity and she seemed to have developed a real rapport with Alex Docker and Mima's granddaughter, Sammy.

She saw fit to inform them that two of the investigating officers had revealed to her their conviction that there was no Bible John and they had stated that they felt an apology was owed to these relatives from the police for the smokescreen.

The relatives found this information quite hard to process and extremely distressing.

I just thought it was interesting that Audrey Gillan placed enough weight on this multiple killer theory and yet all of us posting on this thread have rejected it.


We are all struggling a bit as to how McInnes (if he is BJ). could be so brazen in the way he keeps going to Barrowlands, seen by so many witnesses and then goes on to murder.

There may be an answer to this. If he was relatively well known at the club (well at least by some, his work colleagues frequented there) then perhaps his best defense is to carry on his normal behavior. If he was to suddenly change behavior, not go out, become withdrawn etc would this not create suspicion amongst some.

friends, family acquaintances would say 'Johns being quiet, what's up with him, not going to Barrowlands' sort of thing. In simple language if he fronted it out it hides himself in plain sight. Does that make sense?

Yes, it makes perfect sense.

I hadn't really looked at it from this angle before but it's certainly a possibility

I suppose we all like the idea of the creeping in the shadows serial killer but maybe Bible John was not that sort of murderer.

Yes, plus once we've generally accepted a particular narrative, it becomes quite hard to rethink it clearly and start from scratch so to speak.

I suppose where I struggle with McInnes is that although I think he is such a good suspect and the man in the taxi why havn't witnesses come forward with more information. Bit of a wall of silence which needs further thought.

NW

Or they have and those statements have disappeared over the years.

Thanks for adding your thoughts!

[New Waterloo]

I think this could be important. It probably has been said before. If it has apologies.

I believe Pat Dockers handbag was found in the River Dart. Looking at Google maps this appears miles from the murder scene at Carmichael Place. Doesn't look like its easily reached by public transport. Strong suggestion the murderer had a car which I know many including Herlock have suggested could have been possible.

NW

[Ms Diddles]

I think Ms Diddles is correct in focusing on witnesses from the Barrowland. There must have been potential riches in the statements obtained. 'Checking out the talent' is a very pithy way of describing it and Beattie, despite some reservations some of us have about him, must have had a keen eye for witness testimony. He knew Glasgow, the Glasgow that was a 'dancing city' in much the same way that Liverpool was a 'singing city.'

I commented earlier on how we tend to see the female victims as desperate lonely hearts, and how there is nothing to substantiate this. Women generally do not go to dance halls on their own. But the same applies to blokes: having a pal in tow gives a man a certain social acceptance, offers a choice of partners to the women and, if all fails, at least you have someone to commiserate with when given the brush off. We are always led to think of BJ being on his own but he had been to the Barrowland at least twice- probably more I suspect- and from what we can gather there were two work colleagues there that night as well. This image of the cold, slightly aloof loner is part of the problem in how we see the crime in my opinion. And as some of us have noted, it would be interesting to know about other partners that Helen and BJ danced with that evening.

I have pondered that one myself too.

Could he have been there with some friends or acquaintances (which I guess would be common practice when going out dancing)?

It's possible of course.

If so, you would have to think it likely that those same friends or acquaintances would have harboured suspicion once they became aware of the murders and may well have spoken to the police.

Why did the Bible John inquiry fail? I don't know but the Yorkshire Ripper case offers some clues. We are now encouraged to see the chronic failure of that inquiry as a technocratic failure but to me that exculpates the police. Due to his accumulation of victims the Ripper squad collected a good amount of information that should have allowed them to put Sutcliffe closer to the frame than he was when arrested. ( I think he was not even in the top 100 suspects?)They had good photofits from surviving victims; they knew his approximate age and his shoe size; the worn tread on his right boot suggested a lorry driver; they were confident he worked locally due to a recovered new bank note he gave to one of the victims; they knew he had a gap between his front teeth; they knew his blood group; they had a fair idea of the cars he drove during his murder spree which could be confirmed by the PNC; Sutcliffe's car was one (perhaps one of many, to be fair) regularly spotted in traditional 'red light' areas. It should not have taken a computerised system to tie that information together and hone in on a smallish range of suspects.

The Glasgow police knew a fair bit about about BJ. They knew he was local (something the Ripper enquiry completely ballsed up.) They knew he had frequented the Barrowland where he must have been spotted at sometime. They had a more than decent photofit to work from. They knew he was quite tall, smartly dressed, had reddish hair and smoked Embassy cigarettes. They knew his blood group and they knew he had a working knowledge of the Bible. They could also assume he did not live in the west of the city if the late bus sighting was to be trusted. Given the late hour of the murder of Helen Puttock, BJ must have had somewhere in Glasgow to stay overnight. That's not as much as the Ripper squad had but it is a decent start. And to finish where I started, the Ripper squad had no witnesses that saw Sutcliffe and his victims together: the BJ inquiry did. They should have done better at tracking him down.

I can see why there have always been suspicions of some kind of cover up.

On paper they should certainly have caught him (perhaps even after the second murder).

Beattie acknowledged that they absolutely should have nailed him too and seemed extremely frustrated that they had failed.

I'd almost suggest that he must have been some short, stocky, black haired, bearded Glasgow rough or someone so far removed from the photo fit and all the witness descriptions, but alas it's the tall, slim sandy haired guy who is in fact seen all over the place in this case.

Even if we assume for one minute that Jeannie had dreadful eyesight and even worse recall, it's the sandy guy who is seen with Mima before her murder and the Sandy guy who is seen looking dishevelled catching a bus shortly after Helen's murder.

I seem to recall that the witness descriptions from the Barrowlands staff were a bit different.

Do we have those or are they lost to the mists of time?

[Ms Diddles]

It does raise the question though of why he was so at seemingly ease that after killing Pat Docker he went back twice to kill again apparently unconcerned that he might stand out. I think that’s exactly what he did do but it makes me wonder about how he was thinking at the time but I’m wary of falling into the trap of judging his actions and thought processes in the light of how I would have thought and reacted in those circumstances. After Jemima MacDonald was killed they had the Patterson picture everywhere. Why didn’t he lie low or pick another hunting ground? Might this suggest a man who simply not care if he got caught or not?

He goes back to the same place for victims.
He was probably seen with MacDonald by a neighbour at the crime scene and yet he still kills her.
He was seen with Helen and could be easily identified and yet he still killed her.

Option one: he didn’t set out to kill them but was triggered by something.
Option two: he was on some kind of downward spiral and couldn’t care less if he was caught or not.

Yes, for me if we just had the murder of Helen Puttock in isolation I would entertain the possibility that the guy she danced with in full view of everyone, the guy who created an unnecessary scene at the cigarette machine involving Helen, Jeannie, Castlemilk John, the Barrowlands manager and assistant manager, the guy who shared a taxi with her and her sister right across the city was not in fact Helen's killer.

It tallies too well though with the witnesses who saw him walking Mima home and the neighbour who waved at them shortly before he killed Mima.

It's the same completely reckless behaviour, which I imagine must be fairly unusual in such crimes.

It's one of your two options above or perhaps a combination of them, with a little compulsion thrown in for good measure.

[New Waterloo]

Hello Ms Diddles. Been thinking about your question could all 3 victims been killed by different people. Well yes they could have been. But my personal opinion is that there are two many similarities/connections linking the murders together.

The fact that all of the victims were at Barrowlands firmly establishes a link between them all.

I am trying to imagine a scenario where these murders have taken place and the victims had not been to Barrowlands. Would the police have linked the murders in that case.

I have to say yes. Although there are some differences between how the victims were killed (one left naked etc) there remain many similarities.

We are all struggling a bit as to how McInnes (if he is BJ) could be so brazen in the way he keeps going to Barrowlands, seen by so many witnesses and then goes on to murder.

There may be an answer to this. If he was relatively well known at the club (well at least by some, his work colleagues frequented there) then perhaps his best defense is to carry on his normal behavior. If he was to suddenly change behavior, not go out, become withdrawn etc would this not create suspicion amongst some.

friends, family acquaintances would say 'Johns being quiet, what's up with him, not going to Barrowlands' sort of thing. In simple language if he fronted it out it hides himself in plain sight. Does that make sense?

I suppose we all like the idea of the creeping in the shadows serial killer but maybe Bible John was not that sort of murderer.

I suppose where I struggle with McInnes is that although I think he is such a good suspect and the man in the taxi why havn't witnesses come forward with more information. Bit of a wall of silence which needs further thought.

NW

[cobalt]

I should correct that previous post. We believe that John McInnes attended the Barrowland where two of his work colleagues were also having a night dancing, but we do not know if John McInnes was Bible John.

[cobalt]

I think Ms Diddles is correct in focusing on witnesses from the Barrowland. There must have been potential riches in the statements obtained. 'Checking out the talent' is a very pithy way of describing it and Beattie, despite some reservations some of us have about him, must have had a keen eye for witness testimony. He knew Glasgow, the Glasgow that was a 'dancing city' in much the same way that Liverpool was a 'singing city.'

I commented earlier on how we tend to see the female victims as desperate lonely hearts, and how there is nothing to substantiate this. Women generally do not go to dance halls on their own. But the same applies to blokes: having a pal in tow gives a man a certain social acceptance, offers a choice of partners to the women and, if all fails, at least you have someone to commiserate with when given the brush off. We are always led to think of BJ being on his own but he had been to the Barrowland at least twice- probably more I suspect- and from what we can gather there were two work colleagues there that night as well. This image of the cold, slightly aloof loner is part of the problem in how we see the crime in my opinion. And as some of us have noted, it would be interesting to know about other partners that Helen and BJ danced with that evening.

Why did the Bible John inquiry fail? I don't know but the Yorkshire Ripper case offers some clues. We are now encouraged to see the chronic failure of that inquiry as a technocratic failure but to me that exculpates the police. Due to his accumulation of victims the Ripper squad collected a good amount of information that should have allowed them to put Sutcliffe closer to the frame than he was when arrested. ( I think he was not even in the top 100 suspects?)They had good photofits from surviving victims; they knew his approximate age and his shoe size; the worn tread on his right boot suggested a lorry driver; they were confident he worked locally due to a recovered new bank note he gave to one of the victims; they knew he had a gap between his front teeth; they knew his blood group; they had a fair idea of the cars he drove during his murder spree which could be confirmed by the PNC; Sutcliffe's car was one (perhaps one of many, to be fair) regularly spotted in traditional 'red light' areas. It should not have taken a computerised system to tie that information together and hone in on a smallish range of suspects.

The Glasgow police knew a fair bit about about BJ. They knew he was local (something the Ripper enquiry completely ballsed up.) They knew he had frequented the Barrowland where he must have been spotted at sometime. They had a more than decent photofit to work from. They knew he was quite tall, smartly dressed, had reddish hair and smoked Embassy cigarettes. They knew his blood group and they knew he had a working knowledge of the Bible. They could also assume he did not live in the west of the city if the late bus sighting was to be trusted. Given the late hour of the murder of Helen Puttock, BJ must have had somewhere in Glasgow to stay overnight. That's not as much as the Ripper squad had but it is a decent start. And to finish where I started, the Ripper squad had no witnesses that saw Sutcliffe and his victims together: the BJ inquiry did. They should have done better at tracking him down.